Sound problem 'defined'?

[William Tranter]

Dear Friends,

I thought you might be interested in the stage my computer guru and I have reached trying to find out why my DIGITAL8 (not mini-DV!) devices (a Sony TRV480 camcorder and a Sony GVD800 digital8 VCR) will not import audio into Premiere Elements. I've been away for the last couple of months and it was only today that my 'guru' was able to come over and have a go at sorting out the problem.

We first connected his Sony mini-DV camcorder to the study computer, and hey presto, I was able to import audio and video into PE from the camcorder. Then we tried my Sony mini-DV camcorder (a Sony TRV950), and that too was able to import audio and video into PE, so that proved that the 1394 lead and the program were all OK.

Then we tried my digital8 camcorder into the study computer, but the computer would not import the audio, just video.

We then tried my digital8 VCR into the study computer, again we got video but no audio.

We tried both digital8 devices again, this time using Windows Movie Maker, with exactly the same results.

We then tried connecting my mini-DV camcorder into his laptop, running Windows Movie Maker, and it was all OK - sound and video were imported perfectly..

We then connected my digital8 equipment into his laptop, still running Movie Maker, and we got NO audio again.

Now we were really puzzled.

I had an idea! Why not try the DIGITAL8 equipment and associated Firewire lead into my Sony DVD/HDD video recorder downstairs? I hadn't tried this in the weeks before going away, so we trotted downstairs and duly connected up. There we found that BOTH digital8 devices were sending video and audio perfectly into the DVD recorder!

So the situation stands like this:

There's nothing wrong with my computer(s) (because the problem is exactly the same on several other people's computers, as well as my study computer!).

There's nothing wrong with my digital8 equipment, because we are able to export video and audio into the DVD/HDD video recorder with no problems.

There's nothing wrong with my computer(s) if we want to import video and audio from any mini-DV camcorder, so there's nothing wrong with the codecs (which I suspected was the cause).

So what is stopping sound being imported from "digital8" devices? Everything is OK from any other format of video recording to any other type of recording device, it's just computers (and we have now tried FOUR different computers!).

That's something to think about when you've got a spare moment or two!

All the best from an extremely puzzled
Bill

[Steve Grisetti]

My guess would be that the problem is with your D8 camcorder -- or possibly a setting in it. (It could be, for instance, that you've got the audio sampling rate set to a rate that's confusing Premiere Elements and MovieMaker.)

The reason I doubt it's a codec or that it has anything at all to do with how the video is captured is that Digital8, like miniDV, records its video to tape as DV. And, when you transfer the video from camcorder to computer of FireWire, the DV data itself is not changed in any way (other than being snipped into little AVI segments). So it can't possibly be anything that Premiere Elements, MovieMaker, WinDV or whatever you're using to capture the video is doing because they do nothing to change the video/audio data!

The fact that you're getting the same results on every computer seems to confirm that.

So have a look inside your camcorders settings and see how your audio is set up. Is it 12 bit or 16 bit? Is it set to 48K sampling? Is this a two-track stereo camcorder or could it possibly include a dubbing feature that's sending your audio to two tracks that can't be accessed by the video playback software on your computer? I'd bet a dollar that that's where your problem lies.

[William Tranter]

Thanks for your suggestions, Steve.
I've had a long look at both my camcorder and my digital vcr, and both of them are set to 16 bit sound setting, and for stereo, not channel 1 or channel 2.
I can't find anything where I could possibly change the sampling rate, so I'm assuming it hasn't been changed since everything worked perfectly.
I'll have a look at the PE program settings and see if they are set to 16 bit, 44K sampling.
The annoying thing is that everything worked perfectly until I had problems with both computers, beginning with me having to do a complete Vaio Reinitialise when the laptop started making strange screeching sound. I turned down the sound and re-initialised the computer, which of course completely wiped the hard disc and then reinstalled all the programs which came with the computer when it was new three or four years ago. Then I had to call my computer fixer to come over and re-set up the laptop and the main computer in my study (called the study computer, naturally!), which he promptly did. However, in sorting out the two computers so that they would 'talk' to each other, he started getting messages saying that I had 'sector errors' on my hard discs. He tried re-formatting and re-installing Windows XP on the study computer, but it wouldn't work. Eventually we had to scrap the main hard drive (drive C on an XP computer), plus the back-up hard drive (both of which were found to have sector errors!). We've now got brand new drives in the study computer, and he has re-installed Windows XP Pro on it, just as he had done years ago when he originally set up my study computer. Then, everything worked. Now, I can't export audio from the digital8 camcorder or the digital8 vcr. Aaaaaahhhhhhh! I'm screaming!!!
I even bought a brand new Dell XPS computer, running Vista Home Premium, and it wouldn't accept audio from the digital8 devices either.

All the best,
Bill

[rfjg]

I have a Sony 480 as well, haven't used it lately. I do remember have problems until I changed the "DEVICE BRAND" in the device control setup to "Sony

ScreenShot012.png

[Steve Grisetti]

I assure you, Bill, that this has nothing to do with your computer or the software on it.

As rfjg indicates, it may be a simple setting that's off.

Your audio IS on the video and IS on the captured file. Just, for some reason, some switch needs to be flipped.

Relax. I'm sure we'll find it.

Meantime, try setting your camcorder's audio to 12 bit, 48000 and record and capture a short test segment. See if that makes a difference.

And, as I said, do ensure that the camcorder does not feature "dubbing". That feature can add two additional tracks of audio to your tape -- audio with is "invisible" to many video editing programs.

[William Tranter]

Dear RFJG,
Thank you for your input.

I immediately went to Device Control as you suggested, and found that I wasn't on "Sony". Promptly clicked on Sony, and left everything else exactly as it was, and as you have shown on your screen shot (which, by the way, was VERY helpful!).

The only difference is in the TimeCode Format. Whereas you shown "AutoDetect", I have got "Non Drop-Frame", and I don't have any alternative choices.

I've clicked on everything to see if I could find where "Non Drop-Frame" came from, but I haven't had any joy whatsoever.

I tried clicking on all the different models of Sony camcorders shown in the drop-down list, but nothing appears (as yet) to have made any difference. There's my 'mini-DV' camcorder, the TV950, shown, but no TRV480. Do you think I should try the TRV50, which at least is near in numerical title, if nothing else?

If I have any success, I'll let everyone know of course, just in case someone else has been having a similar problem.

Anyway, thank you very much for your suggestion.
Bill

[rfjg]

The only difference is in the TimeCode Format. Whereas you shown "AutoDetect", I have got "Non Drop-Frame", and I don't have any alternative choices.

If your video standard is PAL, then "Non Drop-Frame" is correct, PAL is "Non Drop-Frame" 25fps. I'm in Canada and NTSC can be either "Drop-Frame" or "Non Drop-Frame", "AutoDetect" will pick which option based on what source video is recoreded with.

[William Tranter]

Well, everyone, I've narrowed down the problem to the TAPE RECORDING I have been using and trying to put back into my computer(s).

To find this conclusion, I did exactly what Steve Grisetti suggested: put my digital8 camcorder onto 12-bit audio record, then did a short bit of video recording. Connected the camcorder up to my study (video editing) computer, and blow me down, the recording from the digital8 camcorder went into Premier Elements perfectly, video AND audio. I was delighted, needless to say.

Next step, switch the camcorder back to 16-bit so that all of my devices are on the same setting, and do another test video recording into the digital8 camcorder. Again, I attached the camcorder to the computer and imported the recording into Premiere Elements. Again, a perfect transfer of video and audio.

So there's definitely nothing wrong with (a) D8 camcorder, or (b) Premiere Elements, or (c) computer! Brilliant!

Next, put that same tape into my GVD800 digital8 vcr, and transfer the same recording into Premiere Elements. Video OK, audio OK! So there's nothing wrong with the D8 vcr either! Absolutely brilliant also!!!

Next, put my 'problem tape' (of title sequences for our holidays we have taken this holiday season, and which took me AGES to produce because they have home produced animation in them, so I don't want to lose the sequences obviously) and try importing that tape into Premiere Elements.

The result, NO audio, just video. The puzzling thing is that I can hear the audio perfectly ON THE VCR, and if I play the same tape into my DVD/HDD video recorder downstairs, yet this particular tape will NOT play out into any computer.

How's that for a puzzling conumdrum? Am I baffled? Am I pleased that there is nothing wrong with anything but the title sequence tape?

YOU BET!

Anyway, the way I overcame the problem tape was to output the VIDEO into Premiere Elements exactly as normal. No audio, obviously! Then I rewound the tape in the Digital8 vcr, connected a 'red and white' audio lead from the vcr to the computer, and recorded the audio as a WAV file into the computer. Then I 'imported' the audio track into Premiere Elements, jiggled the audio file on the timeline until everything was in sync, and I've got audio and video back in my computer, so no work has been lost.

The holiday titles have, needless to say, been re-recorded to an external hard disc so that they cannot be lost again.

Why did the tape not play the audio out to Premiere Elements? I'll never know, probably, but it has certainly had lots of 'grey matter' (both here and in the US of A) agitated, that's for sure!

I'm going to destroy the problem tape - I can't rely on it and have absolutely no faith in it. One of the biggest things we do, yet unrecognised by all of us, is that we have 'faith' in our equipment and the technology which makes our hobby possible. We just 'know' that everything is going to work (just as it says on the tin, like the popular TV advertisement says!), so when something doesn't work we feel extremely upset, confused, and (quite literally) let down by the technology.

It's a credit to the extremely clever electronics engineers that, for most of the time, our camcorders, the computers and associated software, all work just as they are supposed to do. You can't actually SEE anything moving, just the moving image on the computer screen at the end of our editing sessions, and then when we play the tape (or DVD) or whatever to our audiences. Not a bit like a steam locomotive, when everything is very obvious!! (which is why I'm a steam enthusiast and model engineer - I can MAKE something which actually goes! - great satisfaction is ensured!).

Anyway, dear friends, thank you all for your support and help in this most puzzling of problems I've yet encountered, and let's just hope it doesn't happen again!

Thank you,
Bill

[John 'twosheds' McDonald]

Glad that it was all sorted out, Bill.

[William Tranter]

Thank you very much, mate!

[Steve Grisetti]

And my compliments on your extensive detective work too, Bill! If you hadn't had the patience to keep at it, we'd have never found the problem.

[Chuck Engels]

Very happy to see you have found your answer Bill

[mark hansen]

A friend once told me if you can't SEE what's going on then it all caused by little yellow devils . His logic was if you can't see it, then you don't know its NOT caused by ittle yellow devils.

Glad you got it figured out, great troubleshooting tips here.
Mark

[hpharley90]

I've been following this post and am glad to see how you worked it out.
Good job.