Why are there no HDV hard-drive camcorders?

[jackfalbey]

I suppose this is probably a rhetorical question, unless someone here reading this actually works for one of the major camcorder manufacturers...

If Adobe OnLocation and the FireStore FS4 can record HDV direct-to-disk, then why do all the hard-drive camcorders record in the lower-quality AVCHD format? It seems to me that a professional camcorder that could record HDV to an internal hard drive (instead of lugging around a laptop or even having a FireStore clipped to your belt where the cable could come loose) would be in high demand for indie filmmaking and ENG. There are some great high-def camcorders in the $5000 range (Sony HVR-V1U and Z1U, Canon XH-A1, JVC GY-HD110U) but they are all HDV-to-miniDV-tape.

I know there's the Panasonic HVX200 with its P2 flash-based cards, but the cards are very expensive and the largest ones are still only 16GB...

[Steve Grisetti]

It could be a matter of storage space, Jack. Remember, HDV video has at least four times as much video information to store as standard, so formats that use higher compression (such as MPEG4s) would take up less space and probably be more suited to a hard drive.

A miniDV videotape may only store about 13 gigabytes of data, but it's easy enough to drop a new one in when it's full. Once your camcorder's hard drive fills, you're stuck until you download.

At least that's my very naive take on it.

[jackfalbey]

Some of the compact Sony and JVC models have 60GB drives... that should be good for at least 4 hours of footage, and on a larger camera frame they ought to be able to fit a 100GB+ unit. In a professional setting, there would most likely be a laptop or desktop available to off-load the footage if necessary. I'm just thinking of the convenience of having the drive built in to the camera.

When I'm in the field, I already have 3 cables going from the camcorder: headphones, a shotgun mic and a wireless mic receiver. Another cable to an external HDD like the Firestore is just another cable to get snagged on something. A pro-level 3-chip HDV-to-internal-HDD rig seems like a no-brainer...

[John 'twosheds' McDonald]

I still think that the Panasonic P2 route (I.e. solid state) is a likely future and the Sony/Sandisk link up seems to support this trend. Solid state recording has clear advantages (robustness etc.) over disc technology with all of those moving parts.

But, as Steve says, one of the major issues is HD image size versus compression. MiniDV won't die for a year or three yet.

[Paul LS]

The JVC GZHD7 records HDV to harddrive to a 60GB hard drive. HDV and DV have the same capcity requirements... so 13GB per hour, the HDV is just more compressed.

Also the newer AVCHD camcorder quality is almost identical to HDV. I have both the HDV HC1 and the AVCHD CX7 recording to flash media and I can not really see any difference in quality. High speed motion artifacts have been virtually eliminated in the new AVCHD cams like the CX7.

[jackfalbey]

From what I've read about the GZ-HD7, it uses a proprietary variation of HDV/MPEG2, generating files with a .tod extension that must be converted before editing with Premiere. The conversion may result in some image loss, and it doesn't have XLR inputs or even a headphone jack.

I've also read that AVCHD needs major PC power to edit because of the level of compression, and looking at the professional HD camcorders currently available, they all record HDV to tape.

What I'd like is 3x 1/3" or 1/2" CCD/CMOS, full manual controls, XLR inputs and a hard drive in place of the tape bay. Basically a 1920x1080 HDV-to-HDD version of my PD170. I get 8-9 hours on 1 battery but I have to change tapes every 60-80 minutes and wait until I get back to the studio before I can review or edit, unless I have the laptop connected, but that reduces the mobility factor. I think the freedom that such a camera could offer would be very popular with the small-budget filmmaker or freelance journalist.

I suppose this is somewhat of a theoretical discussion since I'm not offering HD output in my business right now, and I'm sure something like what I have described will be coming out in the near future anyway. It just seems like too much of a good idea to think that none of the manufacturers haven't already begun working on it.

Edit: Or, as Twosheds put it, maybe they're just planning to skip the HDV-to-HDD setup and focus on flash-based formats for the next generation of pro-level camcorders instead.

[Steve Grisetti]

Rhetorical discussion or not, Jack, I'm sure learning a lot from this thread. Thanks for initiating it!

[jackfalbey]

No problem, Steve. Always willing to throw out a few "why nots" and what ifs"...

I just flipped open the November issue of DV magazine and guess what I found on page 8? It appears that Twosheds' forecast is correct. Sony is preparing to ship their new PDW-EX1 flash-based XDCAM-HD this month. It appears to be a more capable, more pro-level Sony version of Panasonic's HVX200. No word on pricing, but some chat room buzz speculating ~$6000. Looking at the specs, this sounds very much like what I was thinking of. I particularly like that the SxS cards will offer up to 32GB each and fit right in the ExpressCard slot in my m6300, and with 2 slots on board, you can swap them while rolling and not miss a frame. I can't wait to see what JVC and Canon are planning in response!

The DV magazine article:
http://www.dv.com/columns/columns_item. ... =196603401

And from The Technofile:
http://thetechnofile.com/2007/09/07/sony-pdw-ex1/200/

And Sony Australia's brochure:
http://www.sony.com.au/objects/PDF/PDWEX1_Brochure.pdf