Storage/Backups & the approaching demise of DV tape

[Spot]

Ok, sounds dramatic I know! I'm sure this has sort of been discussed before but thought I'd try a new twist.
If I remember rightly on a previous thread (couldn't find it) the life of DV tape was discussed in depth and the word was that as "professionals" are still using it then the format won't go away in a hurry. Fine.
Except that for us poor consumers buying new Digital Video Cameras the choices seem to be shrinking away from DV tape? The average store now seems to stock a higher and higher percentage of HDD cams (and some DVD).
Yes you can still buy DV tape cams but for how long at this price level?

Here then is the source of my concern. Having accumulated a stack of DV tapes that are not captured what do I do. In the near future my old JVC will need replacing and if I don't buy a HDD cam this time I'm thinking in 3-4 yrs I may not have such a choice?

Now the issue is NOT which format is better(DV tape, HDD, DVD) ..... but how will I capture all these DV tapes to make movies in a few years time after my DV tape camera is gone? Yes there will surely be services offering this for some time to come but that's hardly convenient. (or cost effective).

So... if I wanted to capture all this video (raw) for storage how would I do it? What format to use, what media to use, what compromises to make?

Sorry for the huge post...

Food for thought.
JohnB

[Steve Grisetti]

Well, when you think about it, John, you could probably ask that same question about any storage medium.

What about all those poor souls who stored critical information on floppies? Or Zip drives?

I don't think there's any way to predict which direction things are going to go. As we've discussed before on this forum, we could be recording data onto crystals in another 10 years!

So rather than anticipate, I'd recomend waiting until you know for sure your current data system was about to go away completely before you look for new solution.

Even with more convenient forms of storing video data, there's still no substitute for miniDV, when it comes to quality and the ability to move the data to and from a computer for editing and processing. The move to HDV may eventually change that -- but I still don't expect miniDV is going to suddenly vanish overnight regardless and leave all of us holding a bunch of worthless acetate cassettes.

[jeffterm]

"I guess I'll have to buy the White album again".... K

The best we can do to support the consumer level of miniDV is to preach to everyone we know about the 'evils' of MPEG camcorders. - can I get an amen!?

Seriously, marketing is driving away consumer DVtapes, all we can try to do is supprt by purchasing and convincing others to purchase miniDV cameras. Hence proving marketing wrong.

The sad part, is that I'm not against alternative media - I'm against MPEG storage in a camera. I would LOVE to use P2 cards or just data transfer a DVavi file from camera to my editing station... your thought on that?

[Andy_E]

I recently read a discussion about this on a UK-based forum. The discussion wasn't necessarily about DV-tape but more particularly the issue of what to do with existing media stored on older formats as newer ones come in.

The conclusion was to always look to move your footage onto newer alternatives as they become more mainstream. As Steve says, miniDV is unlikely to vanish overnight. However, there is no need for you to leave your footage as is. Hard disks are cheap - you could begin transferring your older footage onto portable drives in DV format (no quality compromise) ready for editing as and when.

That is what I'm now planning to do with mine once I finish with my old VHS-C footage. My problem is I've left some of the latter tapes for too long. I've had a couple of breakages and a couple of tapes where it's not been possible to get a stable signal even with an S-VHS deck + TBC. I'm determined not to make the same mistake with my DV tapes. Thing is, I have a DV camcorder with analogue in - I specifically bought it for that reason so that I could also transfer the VHS-C media to digital tapes (thus moving my footage onto a new alternative). But somehow I never got round to it - complacency sets in.

[Chuck Engels]

The new consumer level camcorders are really HDV, not the HDD or DVD camcorders anymore.
Most HDV camcorders still use MiniDV tape and record and play SD or HDV, how could anyone think this is going away anytime soon?

The broadcast industry is heavy into HDV right now, and they are also using DVPro or MiniDV tape.
The SD MiniDV cam market may be shrinking but not the HDV market, but watch out for the newest models that will work with just a 32GB SD card.

[jackfalbey]

If your primary concern is the ability to capture your old MiniDV tapes after your current camcorder has gone to the scrap heap in the sky, then I would suggest picking up a cheap MiniDV camcorder (under $200 at many retailers) and just keep it in the box until you need it. It doesn't even have to shoot great video, since you'll only be using for playback & capture. Just make sure it has Firewire out.

I'm also a big fan of capturing and storing video now - for editing later - on external hard drives (I like eSATA for the speed, but it's a bit more expensive than USB). The price has come down to about $0.20/GB, or $2.60/hr. of DV tape footage. That way, when I finally get around to editing, I don't have to wait for capture; I just connect and go.

The SD MiniDV cam market may be shrinking but not the HDV market, but watch out for the newest models that will work with just a 32GB SD card.

Chuck, I thought that HDV was recorded on tape and that SD-card-based camcorders recorded AVCHD...

[Greg mgm]

I don't think there's any way to predict which direction things are going to go. As we've discussed before on this forum, we could be recording data onto crystals in another 10 years!

.

The crystals are available as prototypes now. I'm testing this 978,668,855 TB storage crystal at the moment. All they have is yellow now, but soon you can get green, blue and plaid.

[Chuck Engels]

Chuck, I thought that HDV was recorded on tape and that SD-card-based camcorders recorded AVCHD...

I think you will be able to choose your format at some point with the SD card camcorders. At 32GB you can record almost 3 hours of DV-AVI, why not.
I would sure think that if you can record it to tape you could record it to a disk. At least that would be for Standard Definition recording, not HDV which could be AVCHD, MPEG, or..., who knows?

[Andy_E]

I think you will be able to choose your format at some point with the SD card camcorders. At 32GB you can record almost 3 hours of DV-AVI, why not. I would sure think that if you can record it to tape you could record it to a disk. At least that would be for Standard Definition recording, not HDV which could be AVCHD, MPEG, or..., who knows?

I sure hope so Chuck. Thing is I was hoping to see HDD-based HDV recording by now as an interim measure - certainly the capacities support it but most seem to be moving towards AVCHD as a preferred storage format. JVC at least went part of the way there with the GZ-HD7 and HD3 but for some weird reason they went with some MPEG2 format that isn't exactly HDV - the CBR format it records it is *almost* exactly the same. If they'd made it exactly the same, it would have made a good selling point - with the other VBR options as alternatives.

[Spot]

Great discussion Gurus! I knew I'd get some ideas.

I would suggest picking up a cheap MiniDV camcorder (under $200 at many retailers) and just keep it in the box until you need it.

Jack I think I'll probably do just that! Good thinking inside the box!

Like Andy_E I also have some VHS footage that needs moving to another medium. This will probably be an external HD I guess.

So do you guys agree with: approx 14Gig per 1hour DV footage?
This would mean, for example, if I have 20 DV tapes (full) I would only need 280Gig of storage? (Only storage, not editing space).

JB

[Chuck Engels]

Some of the Prosumer and Pro model cameras have been able to use the FireStore drives for quite some time.
They capture directly to hard drive Dv-AVI and other formats as well.
http://www.abelcine.com/store/product.p ... id=1000023
http://www.dvinfo.net/gallery/browseimages.php?c=30
http://www.lafcpug.org/reviews/review_fs100

[Andy_E]

Some of the Prosumer and Pro model cameras have been able to use the FireStore drives for quite some time.
They capture directly to hard drive Dv-AVI and other formats as well.
http://www.abelcine.com/store/product.p ... id=1000023
http://www.dvinfo.net/gallery/browseimages.php?c=30
http://www.lafcpug.org/reviews/review_fs100

Yes. I've looked at these. Unfortunately they lose something on the portability front....

What I want is a non-tape HD non-pro camcorder (something the size of an HV20) that stores HDV. Guess I'll just have to wait.

[jackfalbey]

Andy, see this thread where I posed the very same question...
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1449

[Wheat King]

What I want is a non-tape HD non-pro camcorder (something the size of an HV20) that stores HDV. Guess I'll just have to wait.

Me too!!!

[Andy_E]

Andy, see this thread where I posed the very same question...

I somehow missed that thread otherwise I'd have joined in.

Interestingly, JVC have released two new camcorders (HD-3 look-alikes) one of which the HD-6 has a 120Gb hard drive. I'm expecting a replacement soon for the HD-7 with a larger hard drive. I know they have that weird .tod extension but it is just MPEG2 and I have read some reports that the CBR mode can be treated like HDV over Firewire. Trouble is it's a lot of money to drop on something if it doesn't work as expected.

I guess the three of us are in the same boat.