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Vimeo

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Vimeo

Postby Jordanmphoto » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:13 pm

I'm experimenting with my first uploads to video websites. I uploaded a 3 min. video to YouTube in HD and then I uploaded the same one to Vimeo in HD (which I joined and paid money for because otherwise you are too restricted in the upload file size). The one I uploaded to YouTube was done with Premiere Elements 9 special uploader to YouTube, but there is none for Vimeo and therefore I saved the file to an MPEG and uploaded that. Vimeo claims to be able to load nearly any of the common file formats. They have suggested using compression to make the files load faster, but I don't really want to get too complicated with what I have to do to get a file up on a website.

The YouTube video plays just fine, although it is not quite as high resolution as Vimeo. However, the files on Vimeo are skipping and stuttering so badly that no one wants to watch them. I also tried playing other people's videos on Vimeo and I'm getting the same problem. I'm wondering if anybody on this forum has experience with Vimeo and can tell me whether I'm betting on the wrong horse by using Vimeo. I found other people on the Vimeo forums who were complaining about the same thing.
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Re: Vimeo

Postby momoffduty » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:32 pm

HD does take longer to load depending on your connection. What is the file size of the 3 minute video & what bit rate did you use? For example, I have a 3:02 MP4 video on Vimeo with a file size of 115mb. I'll have to check what bitrate I used but I think it was between 5 and 8 with 2 pass encoding.
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Re: Vimeo

Postby Jordanmphoto » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:49 pm

I saved this in Premiere Elements 9 as an MPEG2 1920x1080i 25. I forget exactly, but I think the file size was about 760MB. I used whatever settings PE had standard with this format, since, like a lot of people, I don't have the expertise to second guess it. However, I looked at the advanced settings on this format and it says the bitrate is VBR, 1pass, whatever that means. I notice now that the default TV Standard used was PAL. Shouldn't that have been NTSC?
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Re: Vimeo

Postby momoffduty » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:31 pm

If the video is in NTSC, then it should be exported as NTSC. The frame rate should match your video frame rate too. There are now short video tutorials on Vimeo for some of the major editing software. There isn't one for PrEl, but watch the Premiere Pro CS4 tut and the one at the bottom of the page for 'any video converter'. The 'any video converter' tut is for PAL, so just use the NTSC settings. These will give you an idea on how to set your numbers.

http://vimeo.com/help/compression

I looked at a few videos on the HD Channel on Vimeo and the ones I saw that were for 2, 3, or 4 minutes the file size was around 150mb to 200mb. So the file size of 760mb seems too large.
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Re: Vimeo

Postby Jordanmphoto » Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:37 am

momoffduty wrote:If the video is in NTSC, then it should be exported as NTSC. The frame rate should match your video frame rate too. There are now short video tutorials on Vimeo for some of the major editing software. There isn't one for PrEl, but watch the Premiere Pro CS4 tut and the one at the bottom of the page for 'any video converter'. The 'any video converter' tut is for PAL, so just use the NTSC settings. These will give you an idea on how to set your numbers.

http://vimeo.com/help/compression

I looked at a few videos on the HD Channel on Vimeo and the ones I saw that were for 2, 3, or 4 minutes the file size was around 150mb to 200mb. So the file size of 760mb seems too large.


150 to 200 mb? These were HD video? I wonder what the original file format was? I used MPEG.

The latest: Last night I saved the video to an AVI instead of MPEG (after seeing a tutorial on Vimeo where the guy used an AVI). The first file I saved was an uncompressed Microsoft codec, since it seemed to me they were trying to tell me that compression is taking too much time. This codec allowed me to set everything as you suggested (not all of the codecs allow matching the frame rate I shot with, which is 24fps). This file ended up a LOT bigger than the MPEG and when I played it on the computer it was all squished in to make the frame too narrow, even though I believe I had used 1920 rather than 1440. I didn't bother to upload this to Vimeo because of the file size.

I then looked at another Vimeo instruction and it said that for them high res is up to 720. (I'm not sure this is true, because it appeared to me that the MPEG's I put on Vimeo had much better resolution than YouTube, which is limited to 720. But then, maybe that's why they stuttered.) So I went through the AVI codecs and found that the DV NTSC Standard and the DV NTSC Wide Screen are both 720x480 resolution. That didn't seem like widescreen to me and I could see no other difference in the settings. You are also forced to use 29.97 frame rate with any of the NTSC codecs. So I thought "well maybe they know something that I don't" and chose the DV NTSC Wide Screen. When I played it, sure enough, it was not wide screen. The images are squashed vertically. Since the file size was now down to 720MB I went ahead and uploaded it to Vimeo. The good news is that the AVI played on Vimeo with no stutter and the frame rate difference did not seem too noticeable. I'm a little closer, but now the problem is, which AVI in PE9 do I choose in order to produce a file with a wide screen picture?
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Re: Vimeo

Postby Chuck Engels » Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:34 am

You can try using any of the 720p export presets, most all of them will do an excellent job for youtube and vimeo. They will be much smaller in file size than full HD MPEG files. Anything using the H.264 codec will be the best.
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Re: Vimeo

Postby Jordanmphoto » Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:29 pm

Thanks, Chuck,

I've spent the day working my way through the available 720p presets.

MPEG - Has a 720p preset, but no H.264 codec. I used it anyway. The resolution and aspect looked perfect, but unfortunately it still stutters on Vimeo.
WMV - Ditto
Other formats had no choices for 720p

I finally tried Quicktime, the only one offering a lot of codec options. I chose NTSC DV and it offered me the H.264 codec (the only file type in PE 9 that does have H.264). I could also set the frame rate to 23.97 and the aspect to wide screen. I did this and ended up with a vertically squished frame, even though the aspect was 16:9 wide screen. Then I set it for NTSC DV with D1/DV NTSC (0.9091) and the MOV file had the right aspect. So I uploaded this one. but I ended up with a low resolution video that doesn't stutter. Not exactly what I was aiming for, which was high quality online video.

Now I'm all out of options. It appears to me that with Vimeo you can't have the promised HD resolution without getting a stutter. Since YouTube offers the same resolution for free with easier upload, it hardly seems worth the cost of joining Vimeo.
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Re: Vimeo

Postby Chuck Engels » Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:08 pm

What type of internet connection do you have and what speed? Sounds like it is a problem with your internet speeds, not the video that you are uploading. It takes a pretty good internet connection to view HD video over the internet.
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Re: Vimeo

Postby George Tyndall » Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:37 pm

momoffduty wrote:There isn't one for PrEl....


How is that possible? Isn't PRE the single most popuiar consumer-level video editor?
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Re: Vimeo

Postby George Tyndall » Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:40 pm

Chuck Engels wrote:Anything using the H.264 codec will be the best.


Hi Chuck,

An H.264 file that I saved to Personal Computer for subsequent downloading to my iPod will also play well as HD on Vimeo?
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Re: Vimeo

Postby Chuck Engels » Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:14 pm

If you have a High Definition video that you created with the H.264 coded then yes George. Many of the 720p presets in Premiere Elements use the H.264 codec.

The H.264 codec is pretty universal now and very widely used. I'm sure that Vimeo and Youtube will possibly convert that to some other format but it is a good solid codec to start with for web viewing.
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Re: Vimeo

Postby John 'twosheds' McDonald » Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:23 am

Hi Jordanphoto. Where are you located?

If you are in PAL land and you have saved a PAL source video (25 fps) as an NTSC video (29.97 fps) it may well be that the stuttering that you are seeing is the inclusion of the extra frames(?).
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Re: Vimeo

Postby momoffduty » Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:53 pm

Maybe we can narrow things down a bit.

1. Does the video stutter on Vimeo after it loads? Start it and then pause until it loads. Do other HD videos on Vimeo stutter for your viewing?

2. What is the size & frame rate of the video? Is this the same as your project settings?

3. Ditto what John asked " Where are you located?" That will help us know if it is NTSC or PAL.

Just a note: The files on Vimeo if you are a Plus member will stay the same for downloading as the source file. But, even these are converted for the viewing. If you are a basic user then after 30 days the source files are not available for downloading and only the converted file is available for downloading. The reason I asked the file size is that there is no need to have a large file unless you are giving someone the highest quality to download for a project.
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Re: Vimeo

Postby Jordanmphoto » Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:09 am

momoffduty wrote:Maybe we can narrow things down a bit.

1. Does the video stutter on Vimeo after it loads? Start it and then pause until it loads. Do other HD videos on Vimeo stutter for your viewing?

2. What is the size & frame rate of the video? Is this the same as your project settings?

3. Ditto what John asked " Where are you located?" That will help us know if it is NTSC or PAL.


My thoughts:

1. Well, you all are not aware of it but there's a thread on the Vimeo forum started by a pro video maker who is having exactly the same problem as I am (and others have piped in as well). Their HD files jam up after exactly 13 seconds, just like mine. He has it embedded in his blog and can see statistics about who loads it and who finishes watching it. http://http//davidturecamo.com/cbs-sund ... s-tower-2/ Almost nobody finishes watching it. Being experienced, he is absolutely certain that he uploaded it properly. To him, the Vimeo staff apologized. To me they said I'm doing something wrong with my compression, however I dutifully worked at it all day until I had that H.264 codec perfectly set, but it made absolutely no difference. Others on the forum seem to be saying that HD once worked on Vimeo but has somehow gone downhill. I'm not a lone ranger, in other words.

I think it does play a little better once the file has been loaded for 15 minutes or so. But not much better. Do you think that is acceptable playback? Apparently the viewers to that pro's website don't think so.

While my connection (high speed DSL) is not above having a hiccup occasionally when too many others are online, the Vimeo HD files are completely stopped after about 15 seconds and can only sputter every minute or so. If I play the same file on YouTube (which BTW I uploaded directly from PE9 with zero trouble), it plays beautifully at 720 res and only occasionally wavers at 1080. Somehow I just can't believe everyone is having all this trouble because of connection speed. On my desktop, other HD online movies are streaming quite acceptably.

2. For my latest save to MOV file using H.264, I was using the same aspect and fps as the project and the camera it was shot with. The original res was 1920x1080 and I saved it as 1280x720. This was because I didn't think Vimeo could handle 1920x1080.

3. I am in the US. The camera is set for NTSC, but I collaborate with wedding photographers who want to use the cinematic 24 or 25 fps setting and I would like to stick to the same in order to avoid confusion. I do not like converting to 29fps after noticing ragged horizontal lines in the converted videos. The lower fps limits the file types and codecs I can pick among, because many of them don't let you set NTSC with a 23.9, 24 or 25 fps frame rate. The MOV type seems to be the only one in PE 9 where I can freely set NTSC, fps and HD resolution. I watched a video on codecs and they showed far more codec options available in PE Pro, but I can't put out that kind of money just on the off chance that it will save a file that Vimeo likes. I believe that PE9's MOV file should have been exactly what they called for in their recommendations and is not PE9's fault (see #1 above about the pro having the same problem).
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Re: Vimeo

Postby momoffduty » Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:33 pm

Thanks for the details it helps narrow things down a bit.

To gain more settings options an alternative to PrPro would be Quicktime Pro to re-encode the video. I think it is around $30. Others here have used it and may be able to help with more info especially in regards to the cine mode frame rate.

As to the playback stutter: I have highspeed internet, but not premium highspeed. HD videos do stutter for me on Vimeo unless I let them fully load.

The Vimeo stats on finishes are misleading in my opinion because you do not know if someone quit watching after a few seconds or if they moved on to another page at the last 2 or 3 seconds. I have noticed that I do not always watch a video until it stops and usually I move to another page if there is a website or other credits at the end or even if there is a long slow dissolve. And if you start watching in HD and then turn the HD off the video will begin again. So the finish stat will show only once and not for both HD & SD. There are stats on SD & HD plays and I notice that my HD videos are rarely played in HD. It could be that there are many people who do not have premium high speed.

I do not know why there is a difference between Youtube & Vimeo. They each have their own algorithms to convert the videos and this could play a part. There are probably other factors too.
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