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AVCHD Editing via Boot Camp or Parallel or VM

For our MAC users, questions about the various Video Editing software products.

AVCHD Editing via Boot Camp or Parallel or VM

Postby nkrause » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:05 pm

I have a canon hf100 and need a new computer. I am not excited about the conversion to AIC and all the time it takes to do that but I am interested in switching to mac instead of getting another PC. I do expect that imovie or FCE will handle avchd natively so I am still considering a mac. I am curious to know if any of you use boot camp and use any of the window apps available for avchd editing and if so, could you provide feedback on the following.

1. What mac are you using...processor, ram, video card?
2. What windows based app are you using for avchd editing via boot camp or parallel or vm?
3. How is it working for you?
4. Do you prefer the windows app for avchd editing over iMovie or FCE?

Any feedback is really appreciated.
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Re: AVCHD Editing via Boot Camp or Parallel or VM

Postby Chuck Engels » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:14 pm

Here is a good thread about AVCHD and iMovie
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=448529
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Re: AVCHD Editing via Boot Camp or Parallel or VM

Postby nkrause » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:20 am

Chuck, maybe you posted the wrong link. I didn't see anything helpful there. Did DeeDee leave this forum. I see that she was switching to macs but it appears she left the forum.
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Re: AVCHD Editing via Boot Camp or Parallel or VM

Postby Chuck Engels » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:53 am

One of the posts did say that they were editing AVCHD in iMovie and it wasn't a problem.

DeeDee is here when she can, she has been very busy and hasn't had time to stop by in awhile.
You can send her a private message, I'm sure she will answer you.

Steve is planning on doing more editing work with his MAC, maybe he has some insight.
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Re: AVCHD Editing via Boot Camp or Parallel or VM

Postby Steve Grisetti » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:18 am

Yes, you can work with hi-def on a Mac in iMovie and Final Cut. Final Cut Express, in particular, can do seamless integration of HDV and AVCHD.

But, as we've discussed elsewhere on this forum, if you're going to edit on a Mac, edit on a Mac. I do NOT recommend using Boot Camp on a Mac if you're planning to edit with a Windows-based program. It's counter-productive.

Remember that there's nothing special about Mac hardware. Windows won't run any better in Boot Camp than it will on an eMachine, so all you're doing is essentially paying two or three times as much for hardware and not taking advantage of the main benefit of owning a Mac -- the marriage of its operating system and hardware! So you're still going to be dealing with the same Windows challenges as you'd have on an HP or a Dell.

The other challenge is that, when you use Boot Camp, you partition your hard drive. By default, Boot Camp gives you 32 gigs of Windows space. That's great for basic Windows programs -- but you try to run an intensive program like Premiere Elements in that, particularly if you're trying to edit hi-def video, and you're going to choke it to death! You can designate a couple of hundred gigs for Windows, but then you're cutting into your Mac space, and what's the point of that?

So, if you're going to go Mac, go Mac. Get Final Cut Express. You'll love it. It's less intuitive than Premiere Elements, but it also run like a dream.

But, if you're going to do anything significant in Windows -- particularly edit video -- get a Windows machine. Boot Camp is NOT a better way to run Windows. It's just Windows. Except with OSX as an alternative.
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Re: AVCHD Editing via Boot Camp or Parallel or VM

Postby nkrause » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:39 am

Thanks Charles and Steve. I know there are posts everywhere about this but I am not excited or looking forward to the transcoding of avchd to AIC or ProRes and the huge increase in file size via Mac. I have read many people saying that this transcoding takes hours for 8GB of avchd in HD. I then see that Steve says FCE works great with avchd. What am I missing? Steve, are you not experiencing the hours of transcoding that others are and are you experiencing any video quality degradation with all of the transcoding. What do you do with all of your video that is now 10 times larger than the raw avchd file? You must have lots of external storage. I admit, I am new to all of this but have a bad problem of overanalysing things before I make a decision to the point I get analysis paralysis.
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Re: AVCHD Editing via Boot Camp or Parallel or VM

Postby Steve Grisetti » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:53 am

I don't work with AVCHD so I can't speak for any transcoding issues -- but I'm also wary of drawing conclusions based on complaints I've read on boards. Remember, people generally only post when they've got complaints, so you're not seeing a true representation of a typical experience.

Besides, there are many configurations of Macs, and if someone is trying to edit AVCHD on a pre-Intel or underpowered iMac, they're getting the experience they deserve, IMHO.

I've been learning Final Cut because a professional told me how thrilled he was cutting UNCOMPRESSED hi-def (talk about huge files!) in Final Cut on a pro station. Rendering is going to take time, of course. But, because Final Cut using proxy editing, even huge video files are handled easily.

Regardless, you're not going to see better performance in a Windows environment on Mac hardware. As I said, it's the dynamic between Mac hardware, software and operating system that makes them work so well.
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Re: AVCHD Editing via Boot Camp or Parallel or VM

Postby nkrause » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:07 am

Makes sense. The thought on using windows software on the Mac was as a stepping stone until iMovie or FCE edits avchd natively as pe7, studio, vegas, powerdirector, etc do. I had what I thought was a great idea. I went to a apple store to talk to the sales people. No one there new anything about avchd and all they did was took me to the apple forums and did a few searches for imovie and avchd and fce and avchd. So, that good idea didn't help me any. I was rather disappointed...

Yes, after spending hours on message boards I realized that most forums are to help people with issues. Therefore, you are naturally going to see way more info about issues vs "good" news. However, there always seems to be mac users in the forums that only use imovie and that confirm avchd and mac requires mac software to transcode going in and going out. They have accepted it and work with it.
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Re: AVCHD Editing via Boot Camp or Parallel or VM

Postby Steve Grisetti » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:35 am

My experience was the same at the Apple stores. Their "experts" can tell you anything you want to know about iPods and iPhones, but really know nothing about how the computers really work with more professional programs. Oh well.

I'm not sure why you're waiting for Final Cut to edit AVCHD natively. The chief performance advantage is that they DON'T edit natively but use a proxy instead. This means snappier performance -- as opposed to Premiere Elements, which lugs around these huge native files and can wipe out cutting AVCHD on anything less than a top of the line computer.
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Re: AVCHD Editing via Boot Camp or Parallel or VM

Postby Steve Grisetti » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:48 am

Coincidentally, I just stumbled across this excellent clip demonstrating the difference in performance editing AVCHD on a Mac and on a PC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itxa7AD2 ... r_embedded

Again, the issue isn't hardware. It's that even iMovie uses a proxy, so the editing process itself doesn't bog down your system.
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Re: AVCHD Editing via Boot Camp or Parallel or VM

Postby nkrause » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:09 pm

I will review the clip tonight at home…thank you!

Good question on your other post as to why wait for FCE to do avchd natively. I have read in many forums that people do have issues with the windows options for avchd but there are many (i think you are one of them) that do not have issues with avchd editing with PE7 as long as you have the right machine and as long as all of your drivers are up to date. Is my understanding correct about PE7? And, I have also read many times that avchd and imovie or fce takes so long due to all the transcoding. Perhaps the clip you sent me will resolve this for me.

The "right" PC machine for pe7 is much cheaper than a mid to high level iMac or macbook.

I guess what I really want is someone to tell me what they think the best choice is for my needs / wants since I have become paralyzed with information / forum overload! Again, maybe the youtube video you provided will help me a lot.

My thoughts on pros and cons between PC and Mac:
1. Can go to Mac store for help…supposedly, but we both had a not so good experience with that.
2. Go to mac store for repairs and troubleshooting in local English dialect.
3. Macs are supposedly more stable and faster.
4. Macs are less upgradeable and have fewer options for hardware and software.
5. PCs are cheaper comparing like hardware components
6. I am used to Windows
7. Macs are “cooler”
8. Macs can supposedly be used substantially longer than PCs

I want to do below with the least amount of crashes and time wasted on the hardware and software processing the video.
1. Record in highest quality on my Canon HF100.
2. Move files with little effort to computer for editing software without losing initial record quality and without drastically increasing the file size (maybe I should not worry about file size?).
3. Store raw, unedited footage permanently without losing initial record quality.
4. Basic editing: add music, cut clips, make still prints out of footage, improve video color if necessary, add effects, add fades, add menus and add titles. Some of the apps have the "Smart Movie" wizard which seems pretty nice for a beginner.
5. Burn about 30 minutes to a one sided standard DVD in SD (grandparents) and in HD (my PS3) without quality loss of original footage.
6. Preferably do all of this without having to worry about all the technicalities of video (24p, 60i, hdv, h.264, avchd, AIC, blah, blah, blah).
7. Use the new computer to also surf the Web and use QuickBooks.

Thanks for your advice, opinions and time!
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Re: AVCHD Editing via Boot Camp or Parallel or VM

Postby Steve Grisetti » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:33 pm

Because of the way PC software edits AVCHD (natively) and the way iMovie and Final Cut edit AVCHD (proxy), I don't believe you can get off cheaper with a PC in this case. Editing on a PC will require a good, well-tuned quad-core processor.

And that's the bane of AVCHD on a PC right now. And it will be until PC NLEs start using proxy editing.

But it's your call. I'm not a Mac evangelist by any means. But, in this particular situation, I think they've definitely got the competition beat by a mile.
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Re: AVCHD Editing via Boot Camp or Parallel or VM

Postby John 'twosheds' McDonald » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:56 pm

My thoughts. Just my opinion, obviously. :???:

1. Can go to Mac store for help…supposedly, but we both had a not so good experience with that.
Don't know about you but I know lots of PC geeks some of whom are MCSEs so if I get really stuck help is at hand via my friends. You/Steve have already commented about the seeming lack of knowledge in your local Mac store.
2. Go to mac store for repairs and troubleshooting in local English dialect.
See comment above.
3. Macs are supposedly more stable and faster.
It is claimed that Macs are more stable but I have heard of folk suffering system hangs etc. With PCs, I have only rarely had the infamous 'blue screen of death' - in fact you can count the occurrences over the last ten years on the fingers of one hand. In terms of processing speed, I would be very sceptical about such claims.
4. Macs are less upgradeable and have fewer options for hardware and software.
No knowledge on this point concerning Macs. I have happily upgraded both hardware and software on a PC and I do not class myself as an expert. Maybe an enthusiatic amateur....?
5. PCs are cheaper comparing like hardware components
No specific knowledge to sensibly comment.
6. I am used to Windows
That HAS to be a huge pointer in favour of a PC unless you want to use some Mac specific software.
7. Macs are “cooler”
But what about the right tool for the job?
8. Macs can supposedly be used substantially longer than PCs
They are still bundled with electronics, same as PCs.

From your other points, "Use the new computer to also surf the Web and use QuickBooks". Clearly one can surf the web with a PC. Sorry, I don't know what Quickbooks is/are.

My summary. You will know what your budget is. Compare, as far as one can, the 'bang per buck'. From your comments above then rationally a PC will be best UNLESS you really want to use Mac specific software, in which case there is only one choice.
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Re: AVCHD Editing via Boot Camp or Parallel or VM

Postby nkrause » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:05 pm

twosheds, thanks for the great responses. Your logic sounds rational and I agree, clearly points to the PC. Do you have a post on this forum that clearly explains your workflow for AVCHD editing with PE7 or any other windows based app and what your experiences have been related to stability.
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Re: AVCHD Editing via Boot Camp or Parallel or VM

Postby nkrause » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:08 pm

Steve, I sent you an email.
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