Canon HF20 - any thoughts?

[peggig]

Thanks again, guys.

Wow. The prices on HV40s just went up again today! Amazon had it for $800 yesterday, and it's $900 today. Other authorized Canon dealers have raised their prices as well. I've never seen this happen before. Usually, technology prices go down. What's going on?

Speaking of the tape mechanism, how frequently is it necessary to clean the heads, and how do you know when it needs it?

[Steve Grisetti]

With digital video, there's never a downgraded image. You either get your picture or you don't.

So when your cam starts recording with major problems, it's time to clean the heads.

Or maybe a bit more often than that. But not too often. Certainly no more than once a year, unless you do a lot of heavy duty work. You can actually do more damage OVER-cleaning them!

I guess the main point is that today's camcorders are tough and easy to maintain, peg. Keep yours in a camera bag and don't take it to the beach and it will last until long after you're tired of it.

[peggig]

If you really want to go for maximum quality, you can also capture live Full-HD 1920x1080 4:2:2 directly from the HV40's sensor via HDMI, bypassing the HDV compression altogether, but this requires additional specialized equipment.

What kind of specialized equipment? And, if you capture direct from the sensor without HDV compression, what is the filetype and can Premiere Elements edit it?

[Ken Jarstad]

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/
Appears to require Premiere Pro. Elements won't do. You most likely don't need this for what you are doing. The great thing about the Canon HV series is that some of the pros have remarked that the images they got exceeded their expectations, especially for the HDV format.

[peggig]

Interesting. Thanks, Ken. I could afford the HDMI card, but Premiere Pro is beyond my price range... And you're right. I don't really need that for what I'm doing.

Alternatively, if you have a Firewire-equipped laptop (or a laptop with an ExpressCard slot that will take a Firewire adapter) you can capture live from the HV40 in HDV directly to the laptop's hard drive, thereby negating the need to capture from tape altogether.

Jack, how does this work? You just connect the firewire cable and don't put in a tape, and it will record the video files directly to your hard disk, using HDV compression? And, if you do that, do you get the full 1920x1080 resolution, just like you would with an AVCHD camera?

[jackfalbey]

You just connect the firewire cable and don't put in a tape, and it will record the video files directly to your hard disk, using HDV compression?

You can record HDV via Firewire without a tape, but it's better to have a tape in as a backup if something goes wrong with the live feed.

And, if you do that, do you get the full 1920x1080 resolution, just like you would with an AVCHD camera?

Recording over Firewire is limited to HDV compression and a 1440x1080 frame size. HDMI is the only way to bypass the HDV compression. In addition to the Blackmagic card, the Matrox MXO2 Mini will also let you record HDMI to uncompressed AVI which PrEl will edit, but the raw files are huge. That's the trade-off for maximum image quality.

To summarize, the signal sent out over HDMI is straight from the sensor prior to HDV compression, but the signal sent out over Firewire is HDV.

[Ken Jarstad]

I just plugged in my HV20 to the Firewire port, turned the power to Camera, brought up WinDV and WinDV says Error: Device not found. I have it set for down converting in the camera. Unless there is some obscure setting that needs to be changed I will not be able to record directly to disk through the Firewire port on my HV20.

[jackfalbey]

I don't know if WinDV will do live capture. I've only done it with Windows Movie Maker, OnLocation & PrEl3.0.

You may also have to play with the camera's output settings. I'm sorry I haven't done much live capture with my HV20 other than when I first got it... I mostly do live capture with my PD170 which is standard-def.

[peggig]

Recording over Firewire is limited to HDV compression and a 1440x1080 frame size. HDMI is the only way to bypass the HDV compression.

Thanks, Jack. I was under the impression that you could record HDV at 1920x1080, as long as you bypassed the tape and captured it live to the computer. I thought the recording medium was the limiting factor for 1440x1080, rather than the HDV codec. I guess I misunderstood. Thanks for the clarification.

[Chuck Engels]

You can still output a 1920 x 1080 BD from that footage without problems or any quality loss.

[Ken Jarstad]

I hate to quibble here but, are you sure? Compression, the reduction and expansion of pixel fields have theoretical losses. It is rather amazing that these newer HD camcorders do so with no apparent visual detriment.

[Bob]

Yes, you can output a 1920 x 1080 BD from HDV 1440 x 1080i footage -- 1920 square pixels will have the same width as 1440 rectangular "fat" pixels. But, compression and resampling issues aside, keep in mind that 1440 is still less than 1920. HDV has a lower horizontal resolution. Footage recorded in true 1920 x 1080 can resolve finer horizontal detail. I wouldn't obsess over that, you'll still get great looking results.

[jackfalbey]

You can still output a 1920 x 1080 BD from that footage without problems or any quality loss.

I hate to nitpick, Chuck, but this should read "without noticeable problems & minimal quality loss."
Provided that there is little to no post-processing, the exported 1920x1080 video will look very similar to the original 1440x1080 HDV, which is to say it will look great to the average viewer. Experts & those with a discerning eye might be able to tell the difference when viewed side-by-side. If you're going to do color correction & other alterations to the video, or any transcoding or recompression, there will be some quality loss.

[peggig]

Yes, you can output a 1920 x 1080 BD from HDV 1440 x 1080i footage -- 1920 square pixels will have the same width as 1440 rectangular "fat" pixels. But, compression and resampling issues aside, keep in mind that 1440 is still less than 1920. HDV has a lower horizontal resolution. Footage recorded in true 1920 x 1080 can resolve finer horizontal detail.

What is a BD, and how do you output it from HDV footage? Also, what's the point? If your original has 1440x1080 resolution, you can't get more data from the 1440 horizontal pixels than was originally captured. So what benefit would there be in converting it?

If you're going to do color correction & other alterations to the video, or any transcoding or recompression, there will be some quality loss.

Assuming there is a good reason to convert it, if you had to do color correction or other alterations, would the results be better if you did the corrections after the conversion than prior to it?

[Bob]

BD = Blu-ray Disk. You can burn a Blu-ray disc directly from Premiere Elements provided you have a Blu-ray burner connected to your computer.

I wasn't suggesting that anyone do a conversion, I was pointing out that should you convert, the results wouldn't be the same as native 1920x1080 because HDV has a lower horizontal resolution.