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canon hv30 questions

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canon hv30 questions

Postby videovillageidiot » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:07 pm

I bought a used hv30 recently. after capture issues through elements 9 and movie maker, i read a BUNCH of posts all over the internet, and found it's a common problem with this camera. My process now is to capture HD footage with elements even though i can't preview on the computer screen (I just view on the camera's screen).
i captured HDV video into a new project with the ntsc-hdv-hdv 1080i 30 project setting and shared to mov format using the settings i got from Steve in this thread... http://muvipix.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11038

What a mess! There's a constant jitteriness to it...like a layer of junk in front of the video. i tried a wmv output, using the plain defaults, and it seemed better.

here's another thing...i frequently see what i think is referred to as "combing" in my output. is this an "interlaced vs progressive" issue? trust me when i say i have searched the web and muvipix posts and found ALL KINDS of questions, comments, and advice on this (most of which is way over my head)...

i know many of you here will have the ultimate straightforward answer to the following issues... NOTES: I am currently editing HD in elements 9. I've only used the camera in auto mode to this point. While i have tried "downconverting" the video in the camera, i'm just dealing with the full HD issue at this point...

1...what are the best project settings for the various types of clips from my hv30?...HDV (1080i) ... HDV(PF30) (1080i progressive frame rate of 30fps) ... HDV(PF24) (1080i progressive frame rate of 24fps)
2...how to best capture
3...what exactly is interlacing and how do i deal with it? I do notice that some of the recording types above claim to be progressive, but according to an article i read on "benign" and "malicious" "PsF's" that may not be correct.
4...what output specs should i use to put finished videos on the web (you tube, vimeo)...do I use the ones Steve recommended, or something different?

THANKS SO MUCH...as I've said before, I'm not at all technical and i've wasted so much of the summer trying to figure out HD processes for the hv30 and a HF R300. I'm aching to shoot neat stuff before summer fades away, but i'd also like to be sure i'll be able to produce something of quality.
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Re: canon hv30 questions

Postby Steve Grisetti » Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:20 am

When you're working with video from a tape-based hi-def camcorder (like the HV 30) be sure your project settings are set for HDV. Your video should load right to the project timeline with NO red lines above it if your project uses these settings. (This is assuming, of course, that you're capturing hi-def and not using DV Lock to downsample to standard DV.)

If you'd prefer to see your video as you capture it, try using the free utility HDV Split to capture it. The video it captures will be perfectly compatible with the Premiere Elements project.

If you're outputting your video for something other than display on a TV, make sure you're using a project output setting that doesn't use interlacing. You don't say which output settings you used when you were seeing the combing, but if you use an output like WMV, you definitely should not be.
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Re: canon hv30 questions

Postby Chuck Engels » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:43 am

I also recommend HDVSplit, the only way I capture from my HV40 :TU:
Very easy to use and it's free !!

http://strony.aster.pl/paviko/hdvsplit.htm
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Re: canon hv30 questions

Postby momoffduty » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:32 am

You did use the correct Project setting. The out put could be be cause it wasn't de-interlaced. PrPro has a feature to de-interlace in the encoder. I thought the newer PrEl do de-interlace on export depending on the file type.

Here is my workflow:

Record in HDV Standard (1080i 30 fps)
Capture with HDV Split. Don't use their preview window, instead watch on the camera's view screen.
Edit with a project HDV 1080i this is 1440x1080 (1:333)

If I want to edit in WS SD since the project is going to a DVD:

Record in HDV Standard
Down-convert in the camera. On the Play Menu 1 change from HDV to Auto and on the Play Menu 2 change to DV LOCK. See pages 41 & 42 of the HV30 manual. Don't forget to change this back when you are done :)
Capture with PrPro
Edit with a project Widescreen 16:9 (1.2)

I don't shoot in 720p with this camera and others may be able to fill in the info.
One thing to remember is if you want to shoot in a different mode whether it is HDV 1080i or 720p or DV, then do not use the same tape. I think technically you can because of the Menu Playback can be set to Auto to fluctuate between the modes, but I've read that it isn't recommended. I wouldn't shoot in DV since the camera does a very good job down-converting from HDV to DV and you will always have the original HDV tape for archival.
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Re: canon hv30 questions

Postby Chuck Engels » Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:25 am

Just to add a little about if the project is going to DVD.
If you have Premiere Elements version 9 or above there isn't a need to down convert in the camera anymore.
Premiere Elements does a perfectly fine job of converting the HDV project onto DVD.

Now, if you don't have a very powerful computer and editing HDV is more than it can handle, down converting to SD in the camera as Cheryl explains is a very good alternative :)
In the case of down converting in the camera you would not use HDVSplit to capture, you could use Premiere Elements or WinDV instead.
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Re: canon hv30 questions

Postby videovillageidiot » Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:22 pm

Wow! Thanks you guys! Let me see if I can clarify...
Steve Grisetti wrote:be sure your project settings are set for HDV. Your video should load right to the project timeline with NO red lines above it if your project uses these settings.

I am using the NTSC/HDV/HDV 1080i 30 project preset. There are NO red lines - that's a good thing! :)

Steve Grisetti wrote:If you'd prefer to see your video as you capture it, try using the free utility HDV Split to capture it. The video it captures will be perfectly compatible with the Premiere Elements project.


From the many posts i've seen in the forums on this topic, I was expecting to hear about HDVSplit and the responses were 3 for 3 on that. You, Chuck, and Mom think alike! :lol:

Steve Grisetti wrote:If you're outputting your video for something other than display on a TV, make sure you're using a project output setting that doesn't use interlacing. You don't say which output settings you used when you were seeing the combing, but if you use an output like WMV, you definitely should not be.


I was using the .MOV settings from your post in this thread... http://muvipix.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11038 this is a link to the .MOV output on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-XjSb7AxRY&feature=plcp and the "combing" is noticeable in the store sign at 11 seconds, and 31 seconds. There is also a lot at about 1 minute when the camera pans. i did try a .WMV output, which appeared better than the .MOV, but still had a lot of combing. here is a link to the .WMV that i uploaded to youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-a_QOqqY3w&feature=plcp

momoffduty wrote:The out put could be be cause it wasn't de-interlaced. PrPro has a feature to de-interlace in the encoder. I thought the newer PrEl do de-interlace on export depending on the file type.


When you uploaded that great video to vimeo (Ozark Woods) that you referenced in this thread... http://www.muvipix.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11109, what format/settings did you use? It really looks nice!

I have to say I've been ALL OVER the internet and muvipix reading posts about interlacing, including this one... http://muvipix.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=9694 According to RJ Johnston, "Sharing to a progressive format does not get rid of the jaggies. You still need to deinterlace." I tried his "always deinterlace" step and didn't think it helped much, though i have been trying all sorts of stuff and it's hard to track everything i've done. If anyone thinks this is the "sure" fix, i'll certainly try it again.

Also, there are different formats you can shoot in...according to the description on page 38 of the hv30 manual, 2 of them are 1080i specifications for recording with a progressive frame rate of either 30 or 24 fps. that confuses me...is it interlaced or progressive? what's the difference between HDV (1080i) and HDVPF30? Hmmmmmm...

WHEW! I'll stop for now. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!! With your help I may still salvage the last few weeks of summer and shoot some beautiful stuff.
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Re: canon hv30 questions

Postby momoffduty » Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:29 pm

videovillageidiot wrote:When you uploaded that great video to vimeo (Ozark Woods) that you referenced in this thread... http://www.muvipix.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11109, what format/settings did you use? It really looks nice!


The camera settings? Auto & 1080i. The Ozarks video was shot early in the morning which had a nice light. I used about the same export settings as Sidd did in his Spider Video.

videovillageidiot wrote:Also, there are different formats you can shoot in...according to the description on page 38 of the hv30 manual, 2 of them are 1080i specifications for recording with a progressive frame rate of either 30 or 24 fps. that confuses me...is it interlaced or progressive? what's the difference between HDV (1080i) and HDVPF30? Hmmmmmm...


I'll try and take a stab at explaining things and if I am incorrect hopefully someone will fill in the blanks. From what I understand is that 1080i is interlaced and the 60fps is because there are 2 lines of video drawn separately and it is still 30 fps when you bring into the editor. For the PF 30 the video has 2 lines but are drawn at the same time and is 30 frames per second. The 24 is progressive too and is 24 frames per second and used with Cine mode will give you the cinema type feel to the video.

I looked at your newest uploads that you posted the links. What are your file sizes? For example Sidd's Spider Video was 2 min 18 seconds and 70 MB. My Ozark video is 3 min and 115 MB. That is one thing to consider. You may want to up your bitrate to see if this helps and it will also give you a larger file size. Another thing to look at is that it should be VBR and not CBR. Variable bit rate gives 2 pass encoding. I don't have PrEl and can't really help on the details of the settings.

Your test video has very good color. At the 1:00 mark the blue on the sign and the fire hydrant looked good. If a video on YT looks mushy or combing it usually means that it has been over compressed or compressed at a small width X height that is then being upscaled to 1280x720 to fit YT's player.
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Re: canon hv30 questions

Postby videovillageidiot » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:43 am

Thanks Cheryl for the info. I'll look into my file size. I haven't been on the computer where my PrEl is loaded for a couple of days...HUGE lightning storm Thursday nite and no time tonite. i'm going to work on it on Saturday.

i do know from prior attempts that i don't have the option for 2 pass encoding. i'm wondering if my PrEl9 is outdated. Maybe version 11 will be a good option. That should be out soon I imagine.

i keep looking at the manual and there is SO much info! Unfortunately, the manual didn't come with the used camera so i had to download from Canon...i'd prefer to flip thru a real manual rather than scrolling around on the screen, but at least it's a manual!! :)

Thanks again!
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Re: canon hv30 questions

Postby Bob » Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:36 am

is it interlaced or progressive? what's the difference between HDV (1080i) and HDVPF30?...


The HV30 always writes to tape interlaced. When you capture from the recorded tape, you will be capturing interlaced. The PF in the setting name stands for Progressive segmented Frame. It's basically a technique to transmit a progressive frame within an interlaced format.

HDV (1080i) is standard interlaced video. Each frame is composed of two fields -- one containing the odd numbered lines and the other containing the even numbered lines. Each field is recorded sequentially, so that each field represents a different point in time. One practical result of that is a kind of temporal smoothing for moving objects. However, field order is important. If you reverse the field order (as could happen if you used the wrong project preset) you'll get a judder in the moving objects and the combing will be worse.

HDV PF30 is also interlaced video. The difference is that the fields are recorded simultaneously, not sequentially. That is, the image is captured once per frame and that image is divided into the two interlaced fields. Effectively, the two fields are the equivalent of one progressive frame and there is no field order preference. Reversing the field order will have no effect, and you'll see no combing artifacts.Since there is no motion between the two fields, moving objects will appear more jerky than HDV (1080i) -- especially with faster motion.
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