Sound Glitch

[Bob Carruth]

I finally put together my first slide show with music using Nero Vision. (Came with Nero 7 Essentials SE. I purchased the "DVD-Video Multichannel" plug-in.) The video is sharp as a tack. The audio is excellent with one exception.

When played on my Sony DVP-NS725P DVD player connected optically to my Sony STR-DE595 tuner somewhere around 55 seconds into the 6 minute show there is a very noticeable thump thump thump almost like three quick taps on a base drum.

I've burned it to 2 DVD+RWs and 1 DVD+R with exactly the same results in exactly the same place. The same DVDs played on the PC with Media Player do not have the glitch. Playing an output to the hard drive with Media Player does not have the problem. The wma source file (created in Nero from a commercial CD) plays with no problem.

I have to assume that the problem is in the home theater equipment but it plays everything else (commercial DVDs or CDs) flawlessly.

My next step is to create another test with different audio but any suggestions would be appreciated.


I won't be back on until tomorrow AM so don't think I'm ignoring you.

[Bill Hunt]

Bob,

Is your WMA DD 5.1 SS, by any chance? Two reasons that I ask is that Nero uses a hacked 5.1 encoder, that is not Dolby Digital certified and can cause some issues. Also, material that might be in the LFE channel only would probably not be heard on the computer, unless it had a full 5.1 SS system (many 5.1 cards don't do that well at getting all of the LFE material). This could well be picked up by a home theater system. How was your WMA created and in what program? First thing I'd do would be to investigate the LFE channel.

If your WMA is stereo only, I'd be a bit puzzled. However, I'd time the exact spot that the thumps are heard, and investigate my Audio file carefully at that point. If there is bass material there, a low-pass filter should be able to handle it in an audio editor. As your computer is not reproducing this noise, you'll have to match up time and the visual of the wave form in your editor.

Good luck,

Hunt

[Bob Carruth]

Hunt,

Somehow I've been able to avoid almost any knowledge of audio since the last time I used an analogue video editor years ago so I had to do some research to understand even what an LFE channel is. Don't get me wrong; I'm not complaining. At 74 I still like to learn new things. Keeps me from going the route of so many retirees who get bored with life.

I really hoped you had found the problem but as it turns out the wma is plain old 1987 stereo. Advanced Summary properties of the file say "Channels 2 (stereo)".

If the Audio tools in Nero Express can do the analysis and filtering you suggest I'll definitely follow your advice and try to clean it up. Of course, first I'll have to learn how to use the tools.

I probably should have mentioned in the original post that the music track in question is a piano solo that contains very few low passages. I just played the original CD via the DVD player through the same optical digital connection to the Receiver and no thumps occurred.

Thanks for your help and suggestions.

[Bill Hunt]

OK, Bob, we've ruled out some things - and also given you something to read up on: DD 5.1 SS Sound!

Now, let's address how the "thumps" got into your Audio. Please outline the steps and applications, that you used to get the Audio from CD to digital form. There should be a clue in there someplace, as you've got a clean CD (tested on your home theater system), a digital file that does not exhibit these on a computer (previous reply suggests why this might happen) and then "thumps" on your DVD. Give us the full path that you took to get the Audio onto your computer, and then the settings that were used to produce the DVD. Also, please state what formats you have the Audio file(s) in. Your DVD authoring settings will fill in some of that info, as to what is on the DVD. The more detail, the better. My plan is to try and step you though a "cleaning" phase for the Audio, and I promise to not use "jargon" again - sorry about that. Baring that, I'll clean up your Audio file and get it back to you, but it should be easy for you to do, with the tools you have, or are free and available.

As to possible elimination of the "thumps," Nero has an Audio editing module. Do know know which versions it appears in though. The name is something like MusicTracks (will check out my copy of Nero to see what it is called and if it has the capability to do what might need to be done - the copy of Nero on this laptop does not have the editing module, but I know that I have it on other computers). The freeware program, Audacity also probably has all you would need. I will look into it more closely. Have used it, but 99% of my Audio work is in Audition, or a handful of other programs.

With the answers to the above questions, we can get you pointed in the right direction. It should be relatively painless... (yeah, right!)
Good luck,

Hunt

[Bob Carruth]

Hunt,

Don't apologize. I didn't consider anything in your post to be jargon. Every technical field has it's own language and if one is going to get involved one has to learn. I remember the learning curve for Photoshop Elements a few years back and it was a forum much like this that turned me into a pretty decent post processor.

I'll have to retrace my steps on the audio process. It was my first attempt and I didn't take notes. I've already posted the steps used in Nero Vision to create the slide show on another forum so I'll just copy that and add any settings not there.

I'll start first thing tomorrow and get back. Don't know how I ever had time for a job.

Painless, huh? That's what I used to tell my customers when I dragged them kicking and screaming into the computer age. Most of them survived.

[Bill Hunt]

Bob,

As you are reconstructing the steps, make sure to keep any intermediate versions of the file(s), that you are working on. Besides being good practice to do so, depending on what we're able to do on-line, I may ask for one of those intermediate files, should I need to process it in Audition, or another program.

One observation is that CD Audio is 44.1KHz sample-rate. DVD is 48KHz sample rate, but most Adobe programs just re-sample and there are few problems, as they are designed to work with both (plus others). However, if there is upsampling, it could possibly contribute, though I do not think so.

Since we have all but ruled out the LFE channel in 5.1, it sounds more like a low frequency pickup from a turntable tonearm stylus (you will remember those). We just need to eliminate everything else, and then we'll know where these tones were introduced.

One last request. Please note the exact time that these tones appear. If you can give me the total runtime on this file, it might help. If I can't get it done on your system, my workstation has full 5.1 support, so I should be able to hear the tones, but having cue sheet might really help.

I'll be watching this thread, but if you need to ask any particular questions, don't hesitate to e-mail me at info@huntphoto.com. If the question is germane to this thread, one of us can always post it, for others following along at home.

Let's get this puppy licked!

Hunt

[Bob Carruth]

Hunt,

This took a while. I'm getting some inconsistencies that lead me to believe that the problem is confined to the home theater equipment that I'll explain at the end but here is as much of what you asked for as I could come up with.

The Audio track was created using Nero Express Essentials under the Advanced "Copy Audio CD Tracks". Left everything at default for wma files. It's Audio properties are: Duration 0:06:03; Bit Rate 128kbps; Audio sample rate 16 bit; Channels 2 (stereo); Audio sample rate 44 kHz. The default MS Audio Profile used was "Audio for CD-quality transparency (128 Kbps stereo) (128 kBit)".

Slide show project work flow:

1. Use PSE Editor to crop the pictures selecting the best view in 16:9 ratio.
2. Resize the canvas to 107 percent with a black fill to eliminate the loss of
the TV's overscan.
3. Speed up the process of adding pictures to the slide show in the
sequence I want in Vision by creating a sequenced Collection in PSE
Organizer and export renaming sequentially to a temp folder.
4. In Vision go to "Make Slide Show/DVD-Video"
5. Browse for media/Browse and add to project.
6. Add preferred Transitions
7. Browse to the music track and add it
8. Click Next.
9. Select "Make Slide Show". (When making a slide show the option to "Create Chapters" is not available.)
10. Right Click "Title 1" and rename appropriately.
11. Click Next and Rename "My Disc".
12. Click Next and Next again.
13. In Burn Options click the "More" button and set up "Video Options":
General Tab: Video Mode: NTSC; Nero Smart Encoding: Automatic.
DVD-Video Tab: Quality setting: High Quality; Sample format: Progressive;
Encoding mode: High-Quality (2-pass VBR); Aspect ratio: 16:9; Audio format: LPCM (the default).
14. Select "Write to Hard disc folder" and write project.
This created the following files (Referenced as Burn 1 below):

Created 8/30/2008 5:30 PM
VIDEO_TS.BUP 12 KB
VIDEO_TS.IFO 12 KB
VIDEO_TS.VOB 106 KB
VTS_01_0.BUP 16 KB
VTS_01_0.IFO 16 KB
VTS_01_1.VOB 391,772 KB

After successful write select "Start New Project".
15. Select "Make DVD/DVD Video" and then on the "Content" screen
select "Add video files", open the previous "Write to Hard disc folder".
Select "Create chapters" .
16. Define Chapters. Click Next until Burn Options Screen.
17. Write a new Hard disc folder.
This created the following files (Referenced as Burn 2 below):

Created 8/30/2008 5:54 PM
VIDEO_TS.BUP 12 KB
VIDEO_TS.IFO 12 KB
VIDEO_TS.VOB 340 KB
VTS_01_0.BUP 16 KB
VTS_01_0.IFO 16 KB
VTS_01_1.VOB 347,614 KB

18. At opening screen select "Burn again" and burn DVD.

Inconsistencies discovered today:

I had never burned "Burn 1" to DVD so I tried it to, perhaps, see where the glitch was introduced. To my surprise there was no glitch at 55 seconds but the same audio glitch appeared at 76, 93, 130, and 147 seconds. Each was preceded by a video flicker that is not in the finale product.

I replayed the DVD+R burned from "Burn 2" as my last test of media and the glitch that had consistently appeared only at 55 seconds now appears at 40 seconds and again at 129 seconds. There is even a slight flicker at 129 that was not apparent on the last showing.

Every audio problem is exactly the same. As I've mentioned we've never had any sound problem with commercial DVDs. It seems to me that the player/receiver just can't handle the format/media type they are being fed.

As soon as I come up with the cables I'm going to go direct composite video and RCA stereo audio to an available input on the TV and see what happens without the receiver in the loop.

On sound editing: As far as I can tell filters, fades and length adjustments can only be done in Audio CD creation in Nero 7 Essentials and the only output option is to burn a CD. Can you recommend another editor (preferably freeware) or an inexpensive plug-in for Nero Essentials that would let me produce hard drive input? I can always burn the CD and then copy the track back but that seems kind of cloogy.

This has been a very good exercise for me.

All of the files mentioned above are still available.

[Bill Hunt]

Bob,

I could be wrong, but it seems that the Audio glitch(es) is/are being introduced in PSE. Since they accompany a "flicker" in the Video. Also, I have never owned, or used PSE, so I am totally unfamiliar with its Slide Show aspect. I use PS CS2 almost daily, and use Premiere Pro for any slide show, so I am not the one to help find the problem.

That said, can you do the Slide Show, sans Audio in PSE, and just Import the visuals into PE? You might still end up with Video glitches, but this would check the Audio aspect. Once in PE (Slide Show would be Imported from PSE, but silent), add the Audio file. Here, I'd burn an RW (rewritable) DVD as a test.

Audacity is a freeware Audio program. It allows ripping from CD and manipulation. I have used it on occasion, but normally rely on Adobe Audition for my Audio work outside of Premiere Pro. I do know that there is/was an Audio sub-app. in Nero. I recall using it for some multi-track work years ago, as some of its Effects did not exist in Audition. However, I do not know what the latest vers. of Nero might offer.

Let me know if you can do the Project in pieces from Adobe, PSE for the visuals and PE for the combo of Audio and Video. Again, this should go to an RW DVD (to save coasters and to try on your system - one 5-pack will last for years). This might indicate where the problem comes in. Then the problem will be how does one eliminate the flickers in PSE, and someone else will have to chime in there, as I am not at all familiar with that program.

Right now, it seems that your Audio rip is good. Is that correct? It seems that the Audio glitch coincides with a visual "flicker" in the Slide Show. Again, is that correct? Unfortunately, I do not know some of the programs in use, so much of my suggestion comes from that ignorance, but is based on other programs, that do many of the same things. I wish I had all of the software that you do, and knowledge of it. That way, I'd be much more help.

Also, as a test, I'd Import the WAV from the CD rip into PE. Place it on a Timeline. Go to the Project Panel and choose "New." There, select Black Video and place it on the same Timeline. Stretch it to the length of your Audio Clip. Burn a DVD-RW of this Black Video and the Audio onto a DVD-RW (remember, you can re-use this later). Test that DVD-RW and see how that goes. This will tell us if the Audio file is clean. From your earlier tests, I think it will be. Then, we can concentrate on combo of Audio and Video and find out where the problems are coming from.

Good luck,

Hunt

[Bob Carruth]

Hunt,

Sorry but I had to put this project aside for a while. About to leave on vacation to the coast of Maine. Won't be back for a couple of weeks. Hope no hurricanes decide to wander up the East Coast.

Bob

[Bob Carruth]

I always hate it when I find a thread related to a problem I'm having that just ends without either a solution or the fact that no fix was found.

I finally got back to this and now have a perfectly clean sound track. Unfortunately I didn't follow good debug practices so there are 3 (possibly 4) factors that alone or in combination could have solved the glitch:

1. Updated the driver for the Creative SB Live! (Dell) sound card.
2. Recaptured the CD track after the update.
3. in Nero Essentials SE "Video Options" changed the Audio Format from "LPCM" (default) to "Dolby Digital (AC-3) 2.0".
4. Made sure that Microsoft Intellipoint was not running during the burn. (Since it creates an unstable environment as described here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3538 I thought it might cause audio problems, too.)

Hunt: Thanks again for the help.

[Bill Hunt]

No Bob, thank you gor reporting back. We can guess at which of the changes did the trick, but you have outlined a good workflow for others to follow. That is probably the most important part of it. Well, next to you getting your Project done with clean Audio!

Hunt