They're here! More Muvipix.com Guides by Steve Grisetti!
The Muvipix.com Guides to Premiere & Photoshop Elements 2024
As well as The Muvipix.com Guide to CyberLink PowerDirector 21
Because there are stories to tell
muvipix.com

Can a Hi-End S-VHS Player Help Standard VHS Tapes?

MUsic / VIdeo / PIX related, plugins, filters, must have tools.

Can a Hi-End S-VHS Player Help Standard VHS Tapes?

Postby Avagadro1 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:19 pm

I am new to video and this user group. Like so may others, my objective is to convert some 1980s VHS tapes to DVD. Having done some reading, I believe my learning curve should be broken into segments. I have, therefore, been focusing on matters of CAPTURE.

I have a good condition standard VHS player and I intend to purchase an A-to-D converter such as the Grass Valley/Canopus ADVC 55 or 110.

Since these 1980s tapes were made on standard VHS machines (not S-VHS), I had thought that for my intended purposes, a high-quality S-VHS machine with S-video-cable output would be of no particular benefit, as composite quality, through a composite output cable, is all one is going to get in any event. But from what I am reading here and there, it appears that many recommend one of the high-quality JVC S-VHS machines (with TBC and certain noise-reduction filtering capabilities). Ok, I believe I can find one on ebay. Nonetheless, on these standard VHS tapes as I have described, will the S-VHS machine really make a difference – or is it not the S-VHS per se, but all the other capabilities that may render a better output?

A related question: I believe the Canopus ADVC 55 and 110 have both composite and s-video inputs. Given the old/standard-VHS signal on the tape, it seems that nothing more can be coaxed off these tapes than might be squeezed through a composite cable from the VHS player to the Canopus box. On the other hand, if it is true that the high-end JVC S-VHS players may, in fact, be able to impart their magic to the signal, perhaps running an S-video cable (which I can purchase for just a few dollars) from the player’s S-video output to the Canopus A-to-D box may provide some benefit over a composite output cable? Can someone comment?

Thank you,

Howard
Avagadro1
Registered User
Registered User
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:40 pm

Re: Can a Hi-End S-VHS Player Help Standard VHS Tapes?

Postby Steve Grisetti » Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:06 pm

Can a hi-end SVHS player help a standard VHS tape? No. Not really. Super-VHS has many more lines of video than VHS (though not nearly as many as miniDV) -- but that only matters if your original video was shot in it. A better player will give you the best possible playback, but it's still only 250 horizontal lines of video. (Standard TV, for the record, is 525 lines and hi-def is 1920.)

So even the best playback possible is still going to give you plain old muddy VHS video. You can only get as good as you originally put in.
HP Envy with 2.9/4.4 ghz i7-10700 and 16 gig of RAM running Windows 11 Pro
User avatar
Steve Grisetti
Super Moderator
Super Moderator
 
Posts: 14439
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:11 pm
Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Re: Can a Hi-End S-VHS Player Help Standard VHS Tapes?

Postby Avagadro1 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:13 pm

Steve Grisetti wrote:Can a hi-end SVHS player help a standard VHS tape? No. Not really. Super-VHS has many more lines of video than VHS (though not nearly as many as miniDV) -- but that only matters if your original video was shot in it. A better player will give you the best possible playback, but it's still only 250 horizontal lines of video. (Standard TV, for the record, is 525 lines and hi-def is 1920.)

So even the best playback possible is still going to give you plain old muddy VHS video. You can only get as good as you originally put in.


Thanks for the response.

I suppose the heart of my original question really goes to the "other features" of JVC's high-end s-vhs machines. Besides a basic TBC, in what they call "digipure technology" (or something close to that), these machines incorporate 2 to 4 mb of memory into which, as I under stand it, one or more filters are applied to the signal to reduce noise, etc. These additional features (understandably) were added only to the higher-end s-vhs machines. So (the theory goes), it is not so much that s-vhs capability can help the playback of standard VHS tapes, but the other features, which can be found only in such machines.

What all of this comes down to is the following: I already own a standard VHS player and composite-type cables. While I am willing to pay $300 to $350 for one of these high-end JVC machines on ebay, and $10 to $15 of an S-VHS cable, I would only do so if it were expected to make a discernible different in this once-in-a-lifetime project I wish to undertake.

Since the tape-player decision is the first step in the chain (I have yet to purchase the A-to-D converter, the editing software and books to learn how best to use these items), I'm on "hold".

Thanks again,

Howard
Avagadro1
Registered User
Registered User
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:40 pm

Re: Can a Hi-End S-VHS Player Help Standard VHS Tapes?

Postby Paul LS » Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:41 pm

I went through the same reasoning as yourself and splashed out on the JVC S-VHS player with TBC and Digipure. Like you my tapes were standard VHS tapes. In the end I decided it all comes down to the quality of the original tapes and your current VHS player. My tapes were very old and fairly poor quality. The JVC player gave noticeable better captures than my cheap-o VHS player... but then again it was cheap. If you have a good quality VHS player and and mediocre tapes then I dont think the JVC will add anything. The Digipure filtering can be acheived these days in "post"... infact Virtualdub have some (free) filters specifically for cleaning up old tapes. Regarding cables... I could not dicern any difference between the S-video output and the standard A/V cables, again because I think the quality of my tapes was the limiting factor.

Pity you are not in the UK you could come around and play :) Infact you could use my JVC and Datavideo TBC for converting your tapes... :)
Paul LS
Super Contributor
Super Contributor
 
Posts: 3064
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:21 am
Location: Southampton, UK

Re: Can a Hi-End S-VHS Player Help Standard VHS Tapes?

Postby Avagadro1 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:16 am

Paul LS wrote: Pity you are not in the UK you could come around and play :) Infact you could use my JVC and Datavideo TBC for converting your tapes... :)


Thanks Paul.

Interesting you should mention that. About ten years ago, as a hobby, I decided to purchase the FULL version of Photohop and learn photo restoration. I would say that it was two years before I REALLY understood scanning, color management, photo printing, profiles, etc., etc. However, there were TONS of books, Internet user forums and local (Pittsburgh, USA) classes.

I've just begun my dive into video, and what a morass. Unlike Photoshop, which is an industry standard, there is so much video software and hardware out there that it seems overwhelming. Of course, a year or two from now I'll look back and think "eh", but until then it's tough. To make matters worse, there seem to be no classes given at the local universities, as there were with Photoshop.

And to make things MUCH WORSE, Muvipix and the two other video help sites out there seem to conflict on so many matters. Some are absolutely appalled at the thought of using any Canopus product – given what are deemed to be compromises with respect to DV-AVI video instead of purely lossless such as HuffYUV (whatever that is), as well as 4.1.1 color instead of 4.2.0 or 4.4.4. (if I have that right) – while other views on my objective (converting old VHS tapes to digital, editing, burning to DVD) seem to say that compromises on perfection are perfectly acceptable. In fact, when I mentioned that I may purchase Adobe Premier Elements for the whole project (capture, editing and burning disks), one fellow almost vomited!

Fortunately, as an older person with sufficient funds and no longer any family, I have the time and money to make a few bad purchases. Being confused, my now decided approach is to tackle one aspect at a time, beginning with capture, and capture only.

The first conflict that hit me directly was the VCR/A-to-D converter issue. I was going to use my moderate, standard-but-serviceable VHS player with an expensive Canopus ADVC-300 (with some TBC and noise filters) to improve the signal. Then I was told that it would be MUCH better to start with a high-end, JVC S-VHS player (such as the 9800 or 9900 series) --- not for the S-VHS, but because of the built-in TBC and noise reduction capabilities --- and combine that with the less-expensive ADVC-55 A-to-D converter. Since some people really like the ADVC-300 but some HATE it, it seemed to me that since nobody objects to using a JVC high-end S-VHS player with built in TBS and noise reduction, that that would be the better way to go. Same pattern of reasoning on the S-video vs. composite cable. Since my tapes are standard VHS, views on the cable differ. So, for $10-15 an S-video cable might improve the signal, if only a bit. And so the reasoning goes.

If that weren’t enough, because it appears that few use Premier Elements for capture, while Steve Grisetti here and many others elsewhere seem to like WinDV, I thought I’d go that route. But I was also told that a program called VirtualDub is the only way to go. Then I saw images of the working screens of these programs . . . I didn’t have a clue what was going on. Even on the simple matter of choice of resolution and bit rate, opinions seem to conflict drastically.

So Paul, back to your comment. Yes, were I in the UK I would take you up on your offer. (And I’d like to see the Imperial War Museum again). But since that is not currently possible, I though I’d spend the next few years learning how, and what with, to capture the signal from my old VHS tapes. If I have not by then become a decedent, I’ll thereafter move along to learning how to edit the digital file in Premier Elements or otherwise.

Paul, if you attend a church or synagogue any time in the near future, please send a prayer my way.

Howard
Avagadro1
Registered User
Registered User
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:40 pm

Re: Can a Hi-End S-VHS Player Help Standard VHS Tapes?

Postby Paul LS » Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:08 am

Yes there are a lot of opinions on capturing from tape for editing and archiving. For example the link below to "Guide to Understanding Video Sources, Part 2 - Capturing Videotapes".. in here it discusses colour space 4:4:4, 4:2:2 etc and they state for analog-to-digital conversion DV-AVI is never suggested as it is too lossy.

http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/video/capture-understand-sources.htm

I think everyone on this site would disagree (probably!!!). DV-AVI is 13GB per hour... an uncompressed AVI is ~80GB per hour... so an aweful lot of storage space is needed for little noticeable gain in quality.

When I started archiving my family tapes I went to a lot of trouble. I bought the JVC S-VHS tape recorder with TBC and Digipure, I also bought the Panasonic equivalent, the ADVC-110 and the equivalent ADS-Pyro analog-to-digital convertors and the Datavideo frame TBC unit. For archiving I ended up capturing the tapes to DV-AVI without the digipure turned on, figuring I wanted the "pure" footage and I captured using WinDV splitting the tapes into 20minutes chunks that fitted on a standard DVD... so 3 DVDs for an hour. This "pure" footage could then be cleaned up in "post" processing if required and as advances improved I could use them on the "pure" footage.

I also captured all the tapes again using the JVC with Digipure on this time and used a Liteon DVD recorder. Capturing an hour to a single DVD at highest MPEG quality. I play these DVDs often as the kids love to see them. I have compared the quality of the DVD recordered video to DV-AVI captured video (processed to MPEG) and if you compare video frames there is hardly any difference (as far as I can see). Also when you actually play the video (ie moving frames) you can see no difference at all.

In my opinion the most important factor is the quality of the VHS player, this gave the biggest improvement in quality as I tried a few before the JVC unit. I dont think it has to be the JVC... just a good quality player. And if you have old tapes with drop outs then a TBC is useful either standalone or in the ADVC 300. That said when I used the DVD recorder it just recorded straight through the bad spots.
Paul LS
Super Contributor
Super Contributor
 
Posts: 3064
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:21 am
Location: Southampton, UK

Re: Can a Hi-End S-VHS Player Help Standard VHS Tapes?

Postby Avagadro1 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:28 pm

Thanks Paul.

My next step is to purchase a high-end VHS player.

In the meantime, I believe I'll look into WinDV and VirtualDub. I'd like to use a capture program that provides some processing during the capture process. In particular, and being a long-time photo restorer who is aware of the importance of a good scan, I'd like to be able to set the shadow, highlight and white-balance correction during capture, as clipped shadows and highlights are not really correctible in the editing process (which, as I understand it, is why some people like the Canopus -300 A-to-D converter, as shadows and highlights can be corrected on the fly).

I'll try WinDV first, as it seems very popular around here.

Thanks again,

Howard
Avagadro1
Registered User
Registered User
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:40 pm


Return to Tools 


Similar topics


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests