rotating jpeg lossless quickly and free ?

[tjodork]

I've been using Irfanview to rotate pictures "losslessly" before importing into the PE4 organizer since if you rotate in the organizer it saves the original and creates an edited version. The problem is its very slow (maybe its just my computer). My question is there any better tool for rotating pictures losslessly ?

[Barb O]

I've been using Irfanview to rotate pictures "losslessly" before importing into the PE4 organizer since if you rotate in the organizer it saves the original and creates an edited version.

When you say the organizer is creating an edited version (plus keeping the original), are you talking about an Organize panel in PE 4 or are you talking about the Organizer workspace of PSE 6 ?

I don't have PE 4, so I can be specific about it. However, I would expect that if you use PSE6 Organizer, select multiple photos and then rotate the photos, it should do a lossless rotation (as long as the pixel dimensions of the jpeg photo file allow the lossless rotation.)

I am puzzled... Have you cropped these photos ? What are the pixel dimensions of a photo file for which the Organizer created the version set?

[tjodork]

before and after rotate.png

before rotating there is no "editted version" but when rotating it creates an edited version. The dimensions just changed from w*h to h*w
I dont want a bunch of editted versions

Note the one thing I did find that I did not have checked was to use rotate jpg using orientation info...so not sure if that would eliminate me needing to rotate some pictures, however a lot of my pictures are scanned so they woudnt have any orientation info

[Barb O]

For the example that you posted
I don't think that the pixel dimensions of 1014 x 1445 meet the requirements for doing a lossless jpeg rotation. My understanding is that this is a jpeg format requirement and is not specific to Photoshop Elements. Digital camera photos which have not been cropped will generally meet the requirements for the lossless jpeg rotation. However as you say you have scanned photos.

1 -- Therefore, my conclusion is that because lossless JPEG rotation can not be done, the jpeg file must be de-compressed, rotated and compressed again. Because of the need to recompress the jpeg, the PSE Organizer will make the version set rather than overlay the original jpeg.
2 -- Will the PSE Organizer preferences setting of "rotate jpeg using orientation indicator" help you ?
I don't know the answer to that yet : but I am not optimistic.
2 a) Don't know if PE 4 can correctly use that orientation indicator (PE 8 can not )
2 b) Not sure if it can be done because of the photo dimensions

3 -- Especially if you can do a Batch process in IRFANVIEW, that might be a reasonable choice even though it takes longer than you wanted. (the need to do a recompression is probably a factor in the longer time)

4 -- We could an investigate Process Multiple Files in the PSE Editor as an alternative - not sure yet if it will help.

There are multiple factors to consider here - suggest that you also answer these points so we can better understand alternatives:
A-- when you scanned the photos, did you originally save them as jpegs or as tiffs or ?
B-- the one extra recompression of the jpeg file will probably not degrade the photo sufficiently to notice in the final video. However the jpeg should be saved with a high quality level.
C-- some people have reported that using PSD photo files in Premiere Elements works better than using jpeg photo files - especially when there are a large number of photos. I don't know if Irfanview can create PSD file output - potentially no.
D -- approximately how many scanned photos do you have that need rotation ?

Note: I will also search for some more info about the requirements for the lossless jpeg rotation. However, I decided to post these comments now in order to start the discussion.

[tjodork]

Barb,
thanks very much for the feedback....I'll try to answer the questions....
FYI ...I did find a program called Jpeg Lossless Rotator that does a decent job but its selection capability could be better -there is no ability to select various pictures by holding down ctrl and clicking but you can use shift to select a range of pictures on the same row. It also told me my pictures could not be rotated loss-lessly (if that is a word) without cropping slightly. I clicked the check box to allow cropping. My experience is that I cant tell the diff. I'm guessing in the end that is what PE4 is doing .. I just wish that PE4 organizer gave me the option to overwrite the original. I am 60% through my pictures...so I can get by with what I have.
Here is the answers to your questions though
A-- when you scanned the photos, did you originally save them as jpegs or as tiffs or ? 300dpi JPEG
B-- the one extra recompression of the jpeg file will probably not degrade the photo sufficiently to notice in the final video. However the jpeg should be saved with a high quality level. (I saved with 300dpi and high quality)
C-- some people have reported that using PSD photo files in Premiere Elements works better than using jpeg photo files - especially when there are a large number of photos. I don't know if Irfanview can create PSD file output - potentially no. not sure but I wouldnt want to do a conversion from jpeg to psd to do rotation
D -- approximately how many scanned photos do you have that need rotation ? I scanned 189 envelopes of pictures with on average 20 pictures per envelope so about 4000 pictures.... They are not all the wrong orientation but if PE4 was going to create editted for each that would be undesirable.

[Bob]

FYI, not all jpegs can be rotated losslessly. Jpegs are contructed using blocks, typically 8x8 pixels. If the image dimensions are not a multiple of those blocks, you won't get a lossless rotation.

If you rotate anyway, what happens depends on the program doing the rotation. If you are curious, see this article: http://www.impulseadventure.com/photo/rotation-partial-mcu.html

[Barb O]

Since your current approach of using the Jpeg Lossless Rotator program is working for you, I suggest that you stick with it.

FYI - I think that the Organizer will only make the version set when it must do a lossy rotate.

My guess is that the Organizer will not do an automatic crop (and it gives you no choice) so a lossy rotation seems to be required by the Organizer for many of your jpeg photos which need rotation. And I don't know how to avoid that version set. You could go back and collapse the version set after the rotates, but that is just more commands and more work.