Canon HV vs. HF-S model opinions?

[keledole]

I thought I had my new camera selected and now this. There is nothing I can say I remotely dislike about the Canon HV-40 camcorder. As a regular reader of this forum it is obvious that the HV series of camcorders plays very well with Adobe with regards to importing and editing. I even like the idea of having piles of tapes archived for future edits though some have looked at me kind of funny when I say so. Here is the link to the Canon website comparing their models.

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ProductCatIndexAct&fcategoryid=173

The camcorder I’m looking at is the HF-S21/20 series. It is scheduled to be available in April 2010. I realize this is an AVCHD format unit and know thru various post on this and other forums that AVCHD (and its variants) require higher end CPU’s and video cards to effectively edit. I currently have PE7 and other editing software that I regularly use.

From what I can gather from the comparisons I see these things that interest me:

1. 6.01 effective pixels vs. 2.07 effective pixels. I assume more is better for down the road flexibility but at a cost of hardware and software “horsepower”.

2. The capability of Dolby Digital 5.1 with an optional hot shoe mounted microphone vs. 12-16 bit PCM stereo or mpeg 1 layer2 in HDV. My thinking is that the Dolby capability will be nice in the future.

3. The HF-S series has a LANC terminal that the HV does not. Why do I even need or want such a feature? Don’t ask me as I don’t know but I keep hearing this disembodied voice whispering “If the build it ……. You must buy)

4. Tape vs. Files. You already know that I like the idea of tape backup and archival. But on the other hand external hard drives are becoming more reasonable every day. Base on the HF-S20 spec sheet the internal 32GB flash memory can store 2 hours and 55 minutes of content recorded at the highest (MXP (24Mbps) 2 hours 55 minutes - Allows 1920 x 1080 Full HD Recording) setting. A 1 TB hard drive could hold about 85 hours of content (943 GB useable). At today’s price of about $100.00/85 hours = $1.17 per hour of archived content. A 60 minute tape costs about $2.00 to $3.00 each I think.

5. Down converting in the camera to SD. I know the HV model does this very well and others have commented that the down converted content looks better than with their previous SD camcorder. My question is will the HF-S models down convert to DV format or will it convert it to AVC (if there is such a thing). In other words will a down converted file be problematic in editing.

I know that all these additional features come at a price. I am also aware that the costs go beyond the initial investment of the camcorder. Hardware and software costs to do this properly come into play as well.

I may not have many posts on this forum but I do often read the various threads and learn so much every time I do. I know that the frequent contributors have a lot of knowledge, insight and experience with this stuff and your input is valued and appreciated. Thanks all and I look forward to your responses.

[John 'twosheds' McDonald]

I can attempt to answer some of your questions but I'm afraid that I am not an AVCHD user so I'll leave those (questions) to others.

6.01 effective pixels vs. 2.07 effective pixels

.
This is usually the size of the sensor. Sometimes not all of sensor pixels are used. An example would be 2.6 megapixel sensor giving an image size of 1,856 x 1,392. Sometimes the total number of pixels on the sensor is larger than the effective number of pixels used to create the output image. Often this higher number is preferred to specify the resolution of the camera for marketing purposes.

The HF-S series has a LANC terminal that the HV does not.

A LANC terminal allows attachment of a remote control so that, for example, when your camera is mounted on a tripod the start/stop and zoom in/zoom out functions can be operated from the tripod pan/tilt 'handle' instead of by direct hands on the camera itself. Have a look here (a picture is worth a thousand words!!)

http://www.signvideo.com/zoom-commander ... lAod4GNqMg

Tape vs. Files. You already know that I like the idea of tape backup and archival. But on the other hand external hard drives are becoming more reasonable every day. Base on the HF-S20 spec sheet the internal 32GB flash memory can store 2 hours and 55 minutes of content recorded at the highest (MXP (24Mbps) 2 hours 55 minutes - Allows 1920 x 1080 Full HD Recording) setting. A 1 TB hard drive could hold about 85 hours of content (943 GB useable). At today’s price of about $100.00/85 hours = $1.17 per hour of archived content. A 60 minute tape costs about $2.00 to $3.00 each I think.

Interesting argument! I do believe that solid state is the future. I suppose that as most of the investment made to date in both pro and prosumer cameras is tape based that it will take some while before the transition to newer recording media changes from a trickle to a tidal wave. It will come, but my personal advice would be don't let that be an over-riding decision factor today.

Down converting in the camera to SD. I know the HV model does this very well and others have commented that the down converted content looks better than with their previous SD camcorder.

Normally one can downconvert in camera or on capture.

Hope this helps just a little.

[Chuck Engels]

Well it sure does help me John
Thanks for the detail, I'm sticking to tape and I love my HV40.

[jackfalbey]

One difference between the two is the video size: The HV series records 1440x1080 HDV using rectangular pixels with a 1.33 aspect ratio to get a 1920x1080 HD image, while the AVCHD cams record full 1920x1080 with square pixels. The difference is probably not noticeable to the average viewer, but in theory the AVCHD image ought to be a bit sharper. I've also read that the motion artifacting present in MPEG2 HDV is alleviated somewhat in MPEG4 AVCHD. Editing AVCHD natively is very taxing on your PC, but converting it to a lossless intermediate codec like Cineform's NeoScene makes it much easier to edit even on a mid-level PC. The HF-S has some nice new features and would be my choice if the cost was not a factor, but either cam should deliver great video for your needs. So it really comes down to workflow... do you prefer the security of a tape backup, or the convenience of file-based editing?

[keledole]

Thanks jackfalbey for all the great insight. One question that arises is working in standard definition format. If I had a HV40 I could down convert from HDV to DV in the camera allowing me to edit with "ease". I have neither the hardware or the desire to burn BD disks........yet.

Will the HF-S** line of camcorders have a similar function? In other words can I convert the AVCHD file to a standard definiton file (AVC? if there is such a thing) similar to, or better yet, identical to DV to preserve the "ease" of editing factor?

I now have PE7. Will I be able to edit the standard definition (AVC? variant if it exists) as easily as i can DV files?

[keledole]

Almost forgot to thank you too Mr. "Twosheds"

[Chuck Engels]

Editing HDV isn't nearly as hard on the system as editing AVCHD.
I think you can get away with a modest system for editing HDV, dual core rather than quad core should be good. But you can easily down convert in the camera during capture to SD. There are instructions in a thread here somewhere about how to do that.

[John 'twosheds' McDonald]

Almost forgot to thank you too Mr. "Twosheds"

You're welcome.

[jackfalbey]

Thanks jackfalbey for all the great insight. One question that arises is working in standard definition format. If I had a HV40 I could down convert from HDV to DV in the camera allowing me to edit with "ease". I have neither the hardware or the desire to burn BD disks........yet.

Will the HF-S** line of camcorders have a similar function? In other words can I convert the AVCHD file to a standard definiton file (AVC? if there is such a thing) similar to, or better yet, identical to DV to preserve the "ease" of editing factor?

I now have PE7. Will I be able to edit the standard definition (AVC? variant if it exists) as easily as i can DV files?

From the Canon press release for the HF-S series:

"HD-to-SD Downconversion: A new HD-to-SD Downconversion feature enables users to convert recorded high-definition video to standard-definition files while preserving the original HD video. These standard-definition files make it even more convenient to share video online or create a DVD."

I assume the resulting video will be in the standard DV format.

[keledole]

Thanks. Last night I emailed Canon for a clarification. Here is the response....

Dear Valued Canon Customer:

Thank you for contacting Canon product support. We value you as a Canon
customer and appreciate the opportunity to assist you with information
on the HF S21 camcorder.

When the HD video is down converted, it would still keep the .MTS or
.M2TS file type. It would just be SD video instead. AVCHD compatible
video capturing software would still be needed to handle this video.

We hope this information is helpful to you. Please let us know if we
can be of any further assistance with the HF S21 camcorder.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

Stephen
Technical Support Representative

So it seems that the SD downcoverted content would still be in the more difficult to edit AVCHD type. Definately not DV as I had hoped.

Would a software package like Cineform Neoscene or SuperC to convert the AVCHD to DV work?

Another question, If a conversion is possible with neoscene from AVCHD to HDV will it be able to edited with PE7 (hardware issues aside)? I read in other posts and in the cineform site that it creates a better color chroma from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2. There is mention of "Adobe Premiere" as being compatable but no specific mention of "Elements" compatability. Anyone know for certain?

[keledole]

Oops! Just read the Cineform site information again (with my eyes fully open this time) and saw where it says....

NLE Compatibility:
- Windows: Adobe Elements, Adobe CS3/CS4; Sony Vegas or Movie Studio
- Mac: Apple Final Cut Pro or iMovie

But my question still remains. Has anyone actually done this?

[jackfalbey]

I have tested AVCHD files from a Panasonic HMC150 converted with NeoScene. The preview and render response is dramatically improved; even though it's still 1920x1080 HD, it edits like standard-def DV.

The conversion of the color space from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 won't improve the quality of your video, but it will preserve the quality and give you more leeway through color correction and subsequent other effects whereas editing the native AVCHD will result in some image degradation depending on the degree to which you manipulate the video.

You can download some AVCHD files here (they're safe, Mark Von Lanken is a well-known wedding videographer):
http://vontraining.net/HMC150Preview/index.php

Then you can download the free trial of NeoScene and test it out on your set-up.

[keledole]

Thanks jackfalbey. I'll give it a try tonight or tomorow and report back. Your help has been greatly appreciated.

[jackfalbey]

Your help has been greatly appreciated.

That's why we're here.

[Chuck Engels]

Wow Jack, a whole new Avatar, this is great !!
That little guy sure has grown. And then there were two