Video recommendation for nature filming

[rolawren]

Hi,

I have been reading Ted's new video camera and gear site post in this forum topic (by the way: Ted's Camera Store is a big chain here ) and have decided that I really do want a new video camera. I miss the one I had to give back to work, even though it was very heavy.

I have decided I would like to get a new video, rather than this little Panasonic (not HD, not 3CCC) it is a NV-GS60 Mini-DV. It is a nice portable camera, but bugs me terribly that I don't have a Manual Focus ring (like I had on the Canon XLS1 that I borrowed from work) and that it does not work that well in Low Light.

Here is a picture of it that I took of it this morning on the lounge-room floor. So you can see which video camera it is. It cost my partner $550 AUD when he bought it for my last Christmas (I asked...).

Side_view_video.jpg

My Budget approx for the new video camera (around $2,000 to $2,500 AUD. The Aus $ is pretty comparable to the US at the moment).

$2,000.00 AUD = $1,919.72 USD
$2,500.00 AUD = $2,399.65 USD

My wish list and preferences:

- Mini-DV tapes, happy with these, don't see the need to try anything else yet
- Standard Video, not HD, unless people convince me that I really need it
- Socket for external microphone
- I think, 3 colour channel, but I suppose for outdoor nature video this is not absolutely necessary
- Can cope well with Low light. This is one of my major requirements, if it is feasible for the $. See the wombat video below, and the Unusual Bird video (sorry this one is around 10MB, so don't watch it if you don't want to).
- True 16:9, not just the faked up cinema black lines in my current video
- Not too heavy, so I can carry it for several km's on our bush-walks. I often carry the little Panasonic in my vest pocket, but am happy to carry a video camera that is a upto a couple of kilograms.
- A maybe (my partner has just bought a fancy Canon 40D DSLR camera and 400 mm lens) way to attach third party lens. Is it possible to attach this big fancy lens to the front of the video camera?
- A maybe, the ability to attach other sort of lens or those teleconvertor ?lens (don't really understand these, but I know one of the bird guys in Canberra has a long lens and a teleconvertor as well).

I am also planning to buy (separate to this purchase and budget) a tripod, maybe with a fluid head, as long as it is light-weight and suitable for bird and other animal videoing.

Have read the post:
http://muvipix.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=3301

I am quite keen to do late in the day, or very early morning (if I can get up in time) filming. This is the time you see Wombats and Platypus. Here is a shot of a Wombat (without tripod) that I took two days ago in the fading light. I would love (if possible) an affordable camera in my price range, that could do a better job. I suppose I could use a light tripod, but it is hard when you are constantly chasing after animals.

[quicktime]http://muvipix.com/cpg/albums/userpics/11022/Wombat_Ears.mov[/quicktime]

Anyway here is some footage of a unusual bird that returned to my back and front yard this morning, to help illustrate what I think as deficiences of this camera.

It was around 10MB - 2:30 mins. So don't look at it, if you don't want. The low light Wombat video, is the main problem that I am hoping (maybe somewhat foolishly) to solve. The time of Wombat video was about 15 to 20 minutes before sunset in winter.

http://muvipix.com/cpg/displayimage.php?pos=-2011

In it (the above Unusual Bird video) is footage to illustrate, what I am having problems with, using my video for bird videoing.

Topics shown:

- The autofocus did not focus on something really close up in the centre of the view
- The Low light was grainy. The wombat video above shows this better. This shot was around 8am (winter's morning) this morning in the bird-bath.
- Shot up tree, not too bad. No backlight compensation, but possibly too bright. Even though 8:00 to 8:30 am on winter's morning
- Manual focus - I set the camera to Manual focus to what looked reasonable, but it did not work that well
- Auto focus - at this short distance was better than the Manual focus
- Experimented with very similar shot - backlight compensation off and then ON, it only made the bird slightly brighter. Was not convinced that it made much difference.

Also if people want to tell me what $ I would really need to spend to solve my low-light problems (if I can - without taking a portable light studio around on my back-pack) then let me know in US or AUD $.

Regards,

P.S. Don't get too technical on me, that is why I thought I would illustrate what I like to shoot and indicate that by buying a new video (without going into all the specs), is what I would like to improve. Does that make sense - maybe it's a woman thing ...


Robyn

[Steve Grisetti]

In my experience, Sonys give much better low-light quality.

Generally, the larger the CCD, the better color you'll get. This one has a 1/3" rather than 1/6" CCD.
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/So ... eview.htm#

I don't think it has a focus ring on the lens (few cams do these days) but the reviewer seems to say that its manual focus is fairly intuitive.

[Chuck Engels]

I don't think it has a focus ring on the lens (few cams do these days)

Until you move up to the prosumer or professional models, they all still have focus rings. It is just the consumer models that have been dumbed down so much that everything is so automatic it is hard to take good video sometimes

[jackfalbey]

I think for your requirements and price range the Canon XL series (XL1, XL2) and Sony PD series (PD150 & PD170) would be your best options. Both record high-quality standard-def video to MiniDV tape and both have professional audio inputs. The Canon's advantage is interchangeable lenses while the Sony's advantage is outstanding low-light performance. You'll definitely be happy with the video from either of them. Looking for a used model in good condition might be a way to go; check B&H's used dept http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/category/ ... pment.html, their inventory changes daily.

[rolawren]

Hi,

Had a look at the second hand video players at the B&H site and Amazon, but did not find much with PAL. Been looking at the Sony and Canon web-sites for Australia, and then some online Australian dealers for prices.

I think I might need to consider spending more (will just have to decide, if we can afford it). I will also be checking with some local lecturers in video to see their take on it. So far here are the new cameras (in the Sony and Canon range) that are down the low end of the professional camera range.

Of course if I would prefer more the $3,000 price range than the $5,000 one. The Sony sounds good but it only has 10X optical zoom, but is a nice light-weight camera with manual focus ring. I am used to the Canon XL1's (this is the one I borrowed for the Snakes video), so feel more inclined to the Canon XM2 or Canon XH A1 (which I am more used and like), and they have 20X optical zoom.

Is is worth spending all the extra money for the Canon XH A1 newer release Video camera, so I get both the HD and Standard definition recording capabilities. Does this work well for standard definition (which is what I would be recording in, until HD becomes more standard and we end up buying that sort of TV - when our current one gives up), does anyone know?

The Canon XL1/2 series is slightly heavier again than the Canon XH A1, but probably only by 0.5 kg. I am looking for portable (and reasonably light-weight), put still with a decent manual focus ring and reasonable capabilities in low-light.

Sony - HDV 3M PIXEL COMPACT CMOS CAMCORDER HVRA1P $3,395.00 AUD
HD and converts to Standard Definition. Seems to only have 10X Optical Zoom. About 1/2 the weight of the Canon XM. Minimum Illumination: 7 lux ( 0 lux with Super NightShot).
http://www.sony.com.au/production/produ ... erm=HVRZ1P

Canon - XM (Worried it is old technology - still on Canon Australia web-site, but a lot of the Australian dealers don't seem to carry it). $3,113.30 AUD. 20X Optical. It describes it has 1 lux (during 1/6-second slow shutter). Also is this Canon able to interchange lenses?
http://www.canon.com.au/products/digita ... l/xm2.aspx

Another Canon, but much newer product - still can use mini-DV. HD and converts to Standard Definition. 20X Optical Zoom.
Canon XH A1 $5,295.00 AUD. About 2 kgs (other Canon about 1.2kg).
Ilumination - lowlight
Auto mode (when 50i is selected): Approx. 5 lux (shutter speed 1/50,Gain 18dB)
Manual mode GAIN 18 dB, f1.6, 50i is selected: Approx. 0.3 lux (shutter speed 1/3)
http://www.canon.com.au/products/digita ... /XHA1.aspx

Regards and any further advice,

Robyn

[Chuck Engels]

The XH A1 is a very nice camera, we use two of them at our church.
I use one of them every Wednesday night and Sunday mornings sometimes.
It has good gain control, zoom and focus. Manual and Auto settings for everything.
Amazing video in good lighting and about average for low light.

[rolawren]

Thanks, will also see if anyone else has some comments on the others - or they can think of another PAL style camera. I am also planning to start asking lecturer types around here, and maybe looking on some other forums. Have spent quite a while on the weekend looking at different options. I like the idea, maybe that they (all except the XM above) can record in both Standard Definition and High Definition and use the various cassette tapes.

Now that I have limited the choices a bit more (and done some reading and bookmarking on models and brands), I might also check the rest of this forum now, looking at these types. Before I only searched on Low-lighting, manual focus ring etc.

Time for lunch,

Robyn

[Chuck Engels]

http://camcorderinfo.com is a great resource

[rolawren]

In my experience, Sonys give much better low-light quality.

Generally, the larger the CCD, the better color you'll get. This one has a 1/3" rather than 1/6" CCD.
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-DCR-HC96-Camcorder-Review.htm#

I don't think it has a focus ring on the lens (few cams do these days) but the reviewer seems to say that its manual focus is fairly intuitive.

The Canon XM has:
CCD Size / Type: CCD Size / Type: ¼- inch 3CCD

The Canon XH A1 (but probably way out of my price range):
Image size :
1/3-inch CCD
System :
3-CCD horizontal pixel shift

The Canon HV30 (which I am now more seriously considering re: Ted's and I think Mark's purchase):
Standard:
HDV 1080i / DV
Sensor:
1/2.7 inch Canon progressive HD CMOS sensor
Filter Array:
Primary Colour Filter (RGB Bayer)
Image Processor:
DiG!C DV II

Does this mean it does not have a 3-CCD which I have heard people recommend if you are buying a more expensive camcorder, as you can do Blue or Green screen work and get better colour. Do these High-definition cameras have a different way of doing it? Just a bit confused. I know I would like to be able to shoot true 16:9 standard definition footage, but from looking at the specs on the Canon HV-30 and looking thru' the technical manual, I am re-assured that I get that capability. It is more trying to understand about the chips. I have also put in a separate Q. to Ted or Jack etc. asking about the external microphones for the Canon HV-30.

Thanks for your advice or help, if you could point me in the right direction.

Regards,

Robyn

Anyway time for dinner.

[Chuck Engels]

Here is a great article on the diffence between CCDs and CMOS.
http://www.dalsa.com/markets/ccd_vs_cmos.asp
Overall the CCDs would be better, but using CMOS technology helps to get the prices down on very good cameras.
I guess it depends on your usage and how much you have to spend if the loss in quality and features is worth the price.

[Paul LS]

Your biggest issue will be low light, the HV30 with it's single CMOS chip gives reasonable low light response for a consumer camcorder, however under low light the noise will increase as the gain of the camcorder is increased to compensate for the low light. To get good low light performance you will need to go to the prosumer camcorders using 3chips... and obviously there is a jump in the price. You will go from a price range of $800/900 to $1500/2000.

[jackfalbey]

The big question, Robyn, is whether you want a camcorder that will suit your needs for the next 5-10 years (more money), or one that suits your needs right now (less money). If you don't anticipate producing HD for some time, I say get a good standard-def prosumer camcorder now and sell it on E-Bay in a few years when you're ready for HD. In 2-3 years there will be much better and cheaper HD cams available, and the used SD cams are holding approximately 60-70% of their retail value on E-Bay. In fact, buying a used or refurbished model is a good option as long as it's from a reputable dealer.

Now, about your choices:

The Sony HVRA1P and Canon HV30 are single-chip camcorders, so low-light performance is poor.

The Canon XM2 is just a PAL version of our USA-model GL2 which is mediocre in video quality, and no it doesn't have interchangeable lenses.

The Canon XH-A1 is an excellent camera, but it's a lot more than you want to spend and in a few years it will cost less.

I think for your needs and budget, the "older" Sony PD170 and Canon XL2 are really what you need. They both have been widely used for in-the-field journalism/documentaries for years and have excellent reputations. The PD170 has the best low-light performance of any prosumer camcorder and is ruggedly built for durability; it has a metal outer shell. You can also get 9-hour batteries for it that aren't much bigger than the stock batteries. The disadvantage of the PD170 is that, while it does have a 16:9 mode, it does it by cropping the top & bottom of the image. I don't see a negative effect in my videos (in fact I use the 16:9 mode for weddings and they look beautiful) but some users have complained about it. The XL2's main advantage of course is interchangeable lenses which gives it a longer zoom range, but you then have to carry the extra lenses around with you, and they're expensive too. Since you're already familiar with the XL2, see if you can find a PD170 to "test drive" and compare the two to see which one works best for you.

[rolawren]

Will continue pondering, about which camcorder to buy over the next few weeks. Am still tossing up between Canon HV30 & ext. mic or a second hand possibly Canon XL2 (if I can find one).

I am having trouble finding second-hand reliable dealers in Australia. See post.

http://muvipix.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=3216&p=28777#p28777

Cheers,

Robyn

[Ken Jarstad]

The Sony HVRA1P and Canon HV30 are single-chip camcorders, so low-light performance is poor.

Jack, I have mentioned this issue on another topic. The low light performance of the Canon HV20/30 camcorders is not poor! It may me somewhat less than some of the more costly camcorders available but I maintain that you can not characterize them as "poor". In fact I would rate them as well above average in their price class. Poor means "stay away - junky performance" and that grossly mis-characterizes them.

[Chuck Engels]

I agree that it is poor in comparison to 3CCD camcorders, but not poor in general.
If you compare the HV20, or any CMOS camera, with a 3CCD camera I think you will see a huge difference in low light quality.

The 3CCD cameras have wonderful low light quality, the professional models with the high end lenses are even better, no, amazing is the word.
These cameras can cost up around $10,000+ USD, not your average camera by a long ways. We have 4 such cameras at our church along with a couple of the Canon HDV XH A1s. Even the lesser expensive Canon XH A1s have 3CCDs and are not as good of quality in low light as the pro cameras. They have excellent gain control and iris but if it gets too dark the image really starts to get grainy were the pro cameras to do not.

Still, the HV20s low light quality is huge compared to my little JVC, so as with everything else, poor is relative.