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Next camcorder may be...DSLR?

MiniDV, DVD, Hard Drive, 8 mm, High Def, brands, import / capture techniques, settings ... talk about camcorders in here.

Next camcorder may be...DSLR?

Postby Ron Hunter » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:44 am

My recent attempt to use an iPhone for vacation photos/videos reminded me that items that represent "compromise" tradeoff convenience for quality. With that in mind, I'm curious about the limitations of using a DSLR as a primary camcorder.

I never would have thought of using a DSLR as a camcorder until I saw Cheryl's recent video documenting a summer vacation trip. The video shots were excellent! (Editing, pacing, and composition were excellent too, but I'm getting off the subject!) I didn't know a DSLR could do video so well. If her finished video was any indication, her DSLR did not limit her creative abilities back at all. (Or maybe her creative talent allowed her to overcome those limitations???)

Anyway, I'm curious to learn of people's experience using a DSLR as their primary camcorder. The ability to shoot quality video from the same device that provides quality pictures would be very attractive. I have an older Canon Rebel DSLR that takes amazing pictures. Maybe Santa could bring me a new T5i...

I suspect one noteworthy limitation is the use of memory card storage vs tape. Anything else to consider?
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Re: Next camcorder may be...DSLR?

Postby Steve Grisetti » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:15 am

I recently spoke to an industrial video professional and was surprised to learn that they shoot all of their video on a Canon 5D. So there really are no compromises, as far as quality is concerned.

On the other hand, you could easily drop $2000-10,000 on a Canon 5D and accessory set -- and a traditional high-def camcorder could be had for much cheaper.

So I'm very interested in this discussion too, Ron. Thanks for starting it up!
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Re: Next camcorder may be...DSLR?

Postby stanatou » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:52 am

I've pretty much decided that my next 'video' camera will be a DSLR...and I've been real tempted to get a Canon 60D now that the prices are down. Of course, the price has come down because the 60D replacement has just been released so now I'll have to evaluate that and see if the improvements are worth the additional money.

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Re: Next camcorder may be...DSLR?

Postby Chris B » Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:19 pm

Having tried to film with both an HV30 video camera and a Nex5N (which is roughly equivalent to a DSLR) they are both good - but different. My limited experience and opinion is as follows.

DSLR lenses tend to have a much narrower depth of field. This is wanted by many filmmakers as it focusses on the subject. But it makes "point and shoot" much harder. (You can set aperture priority to help alleviate this)

DSLR Lenses (unless they are VERY expensive) tend to have a much smaller zoom range than camcorders. For example the kit 18-55 mm is a reasonably wide angle to a slight zoom and has a 3x range. an 11x (equivalent to roughly the HV30's zoom range) is would be 18-200. Again the "professional" filmmakers choose the correct lens for their shot - not usually an option for point and shoot.

DSLR Lenses don't tend to have motorised zooms lenses (although some do exist for certain cameras). Again - if you know your shot in advance you don't tend to need to zoom.

They also don't do sound particularly well (not that video camera inbuilt mics are any good). For example the 60D has a mono microphone. Again people expect professionals to use separate mics.

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Re: Next camcorder may be...DSLR?

Postby Bob » Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:52 pm

There are advantages and disadvantages to recording video with a DSLR. One of the biggest advantages being that you can change lenses (a feature found only on high end professional video cameras costing many times more). That allows you to control depth of field and bokeh, and larger apertures and sensors provide low light capability with less noise. The lighter weight is a mixed blessing. On the one hand, you have greater maneuverability, but on the other, you have higher shaking and could benefit from a tripod or stabilizer. As for disadvantages, the recording time is limited. DSLRS are not designed for continuous long time filming like video camera are and heat is not dissipated as well. Many DSLRS will shut off after a time to prevent damage to the sensor, in some cameras, that's about ten minutes more or less. If you are planning on shooting something continuously that lasts a while you may be out of luck. Another potential disadvantage is rolling shutter. Unlike cameras using CCD sensors that record everything at once, DSLRs typically use CMOS sensors that are scanned line by line. If you have motion, this scanned recording can cause wobble, skew, and smearing. If a flash goes off during the frame, you can even get partial exposure. Stabilizers, such as the Warp Stabilizer in Premiere Pro, can correct for skew, but smearing (caused by motion of the subject during the scan) is likely uncorrectable. DSLRs don't typically don't have good microphones and they don't have XLR inputs for professional microphones. If you want professional level sound, you'll likely need to record separately and combine in post.
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Re: Next camcorder may be...DSLR?

Postby Chris B » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:11 pm

Ah - that reminds me. I can vouch for the overheating.

However if you camera doesn't overheat under EU rules cameras cannot record more than 30 minutes of video in one go before becoming classed as camcorders - and this makes them more expensive (additional tax) so all the firmware limits to 30 minutes. May be an issue for concerts etc.

http://www.tested.com/tech/photography/ ... ing-limit/
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Re: Next camcorder may be...DSLR?

Postby momoffduty » Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:48 pm

Thanks Ron and it is mostly the camera & lens doing the heavy lifting. :-D

Looks like the other posts covered a lot of the pros & cons. I still use my HV30 for events such as commencements.

The thing to ask is what will you be shooting? For me I wanted something for short 2 minute clips or up to 5 minutes of my grand daughter and of daily life. What to do with all those little clips? I make little projects for her to view on a tablet. And will make a DVD every 6 months for her & family. I've got tapes stacked up like cord wood that I have yet to edit all of them from the first 2 years. Does the family want a dozen discs? Not really, they are into short sound bites. Thank Twitter & Facebook & Instagram.

The T4i & the T5i are virtually the same camera. The dial on the T5i now spins completely around. They both have the touch screen which is handy to get to menus quickly. Find a sale on the T4i. Here is a comparison:
https://vimeo.com/68231722
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Re: Next camcorder may be...DSLR?

Postby Ron Hunter » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:04 pm

Thanks for the info Cheryl, that review was VERY helpful. I'm attracted to the idea of combining a quality camera and camcorder into one device. My video clips are typically 30sec or shorter, so it sounds like our methods of shooting are similar.

I understand the DSLR issues as follows, please correct if necessary:
- DSLR cannot record for long periods like a camcorder can.
- Since DSLR uses SD card, long term storage of clips for editing has to be considered.
- DSLR uses CMOS sensor that can cause blurry images with moving subjects.
- DSLR onboard mic isn't good (but most camcorder onboard mics aren't good either)

Cheryl (and any other Canon t4i users), with regards to your Rebel t4i DSLR:
- are there any particular requirements for the SD card with regards to class/speed?
- have you noticed blurry images while shooting video with your t4i?
- do you know if a Canon shotgun mic will fit on its hotshoe? (I note the camera has an external mic input.)
- have you had any problems editing the clips?
- do you expect any problems editing the clips using Premiere Elements 10 on a PC that is 2yr old or less?

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Re: Next camcorder may be...DSLR?

Postby Chuck Engels » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:53 pm

Ron Hunter wrote:- DSLR onboard mic isn't good (but most camcorder onboard mics aren't good either)


The problem is that the DSLR mics are much worse than the camcorder onboard mics. Everyone I know that shoots with DSLRs now, which is almost everyone, spends just as much on audio equipment as they do on the cameras themselves ](*,)
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Re: Next camcorder may be...DSLR?

Postby Bob » Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:48 pm

DSLR uses CMOS sensor that can cause blurry images with moving subjects.


No, not blurry. Skewed or artifacted.
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Re: Next camcorder may be...DSLR?

Postby momoffduty » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:25 pm

The audio isn't very good. I have a hot shoe mic I use on the HV30, a DM-50 and doesn't work on the T4i. The connection isn't the same.

I have 3 16G class 10 cards. I picked up the last 2 for our trip not knowing how much I would use with the time lapses & video. Only used about 1/3 of each card. I read on another forum to spread your files out in case one card dies. Shot Jpg Med for the timelapses, Jpg Large for photos, and 1920x1080 for the video. In the manual it shows a chart that 1080p 30fps takes up the same space as 720p 60 fps so I went with the larger format. The past year I have been shooting mostly Raw and that takes up a lot of space.

With the video I haven't noticed any rolling shutter artifacts. I have a new build so it does cut through HD video nicely. The computer experts here can help you with your system specs. for editing.

One of the things that was an adjustment for me is not being able to use the viewfinder like on a camcorder. The mirror is up in video mode so screen only. If I did a lot of shooting that really mattered I would invest in a loupe.

I am still trying to figure out my long term storage for video and file structures. I was putting the video in the same photo folder by shot day. But, now started to save in its own folder. The file structure is Photos>Year>day and the same will be for video: Video>Year>day. Next to the day I add a one or two word description. This should help find video files easier when it comes time to edit. I am backing stuff up today to my old computer. I may get a dedicated external for a 3rd backup of video and use the old external for a 3rd back up of photos and current projects. Almost like untangling Christmas lights! I have an aversion of deleting old projects. Think I deleted 500G today of old stuff.
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Re: Next camcorder may be...DSLR?

Postby Bob » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:05 pm

Thought that I would add that the sensors on smart phones and tablets are CMOS. Just because it's CMOS doesn't mean you will get bad footage. Just don't expect to do a Blair Witch type project with fast panning and expect it to be undistorted. Pan slow and steady and you probably won't see skewing. You may see smearing or artifacts if you are shooting fast moving cars or scenes containing fast moving fan blades or airplane propellers.
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Re: Next camcorder may be...DSLR?

Postby Chris B » Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:09 am

A lot of camcorders are also CMOS - the venerable HV30 for example or the Panasonic X900. I think you need to go quite high end to avoid them...
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Re: Next camcorder may be...DSLR?

Postby Ron Hunter » Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:28 pm

A question to resurrect this thread...

The Frugal Filmmaker said the recording format of some DSLRs (not AVCHD) requires him to transcode the footage before he can edit in Sony Vegas, otherwise his computer chokes and crashes. I'm using a Win'7 64-bit machine, i7 CPU, and Premiere Elements 10 for video editing and I'm wondering...

If I were to get a Canon Rebel T4i (which doesn't record in AVCHD), would I have to transcode that footage in order to edit it in Premiere Elements 10?

Do any Rebel users (Cheryl, you out there?) have any experience they can share?
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Re: Next camcorder may be...DSLR?

Postby Bob » Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:08 pm

That camera uses MOV file format, with H.264/MPEG-4 AVC encoding. I doubt you will have any problems.
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