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Help with recording audio

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Help with recording audio

Postby ryan_khoo » Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:28 am

I am now in the midst of doing a video for the school where the group of teachers will take turn to sing, something like "We are the World". I will be recording the audio (ie the singing) separately as a sound file & I will record the background music separately. This is so that I am able to control the voice background music separately ....

Of cos I am on a tight budget, I intend to get two microphone (Shure SM58) so that the sound is captured is stereo. I intend to capture the singing using a laptop. So, the two mic will be connecting into a laptop.

Questions:

1. My laptop only has one mic input, so how do I capture the singing when I have 2 microphone ? Will getting this cable: http://www.samash.com/p/CYX403%20Stereo ... _-49980247
solve the problem ?

2. Someone on the youtube said that if I use the Shure SM58 microphone, I need "something" to boost up the signal of SM58 before it goes to the laptop ? In this video, the guy said (some where at 2:10) that the signal that comes out from the SM58 is too low go into the computer & need a mixer to boost up the signal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1n1TAxZhHs

Do I really need a mixer for my purpose ? Or a preamp will do ?

I intend to plug the SM58 straight into the laptop to record the voice, is that the correct way ?

If connecting to laptop, can I just use the software that I have like Windows Movie Maker, Sony Vegas or Adobe Premiere ? Or must I buy some specialize software ?

Which is correct:
Mic ----> laptop (Sony Vegas, Adobe Premiere, WIndows Movie Maker)

OR

Mic ----> preamp/mixer ---> laptop (Sony Vegas, Adobe Premiere, WIndows Movie Maker)

Thanks
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Re: Help with recording audio

Postby Chuck Engels » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:28 am

Hi Ryan,
You really need something like Dave and I have been discussing here
viewtopic.php?p=69998#p69998

The mic does need boosting, the unit that Dave references has the ability to do that.
You can maybe get a XLR to 1/8" adapter to connect the mic to the computer, but I wouldn't recommend that.

The unit that Dave references is $299 on sale and you could record all mics to the same laptop as separate channels/tracks.

Other than that take a trip to your nearest Guitar Center or even Radio Shack. They will be able to help you find a preamp and adapters that will work for what you are trying to do.
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Re: Help with recording audio

Postby ryan_khoo » Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:43 am

Thanks Chuck,

I have read the discussion you had with Dave but in my case the school has no budget to buy equipment but I do not mind buying iy myself if it is not too expensive.

Can I ask you this ? Wouldn't the $299 mixer that you made reference to a bit overkill for my case especially with 16 inputs ?

I have at most 2 mic inputs to record the voice/vocal/singing as a sound file.

I will place this vocal sound file over another sound file (which is an instrumental music - to provide background music) in a Video Editor. I probably have to adjust these two sound files & the video in the Video Editor so that they are in sync.

Since you said that the Shure SM58 mic needs some signal boosting, would a cheap mixer like this: http://www.nextag.com/Behringer-Xenyx-8 ... rices-html be sufficient ?

Another question is this: "Can I record the sound in the laptop using just Windows Movie Maker or Adobe Premiere or Final Cut ? (instead of using a specialized software).

For my knowledge, can you kindly explain why you do not recommend getting a XLR to 1/8" adapter to connect the mic to the laptop for recording ?

Thanks a million ...
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Re: Help with recording audio

Postby Chuck Engels » Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:19 am

Hi Ryan,
I don't recommend using adapters unless absolutely necessary, primarily due to signal loss, quality issues and potential connection problems that can be hard to diagnose.

The unit you suggest is only a mixer, it won't get you anywhere as far as getting a good quality recording onto your computer.

You can record directly to Windows Movie Maker, Premiere Elements, Windows Sound Recorder, or Audacity for that matter.
You will get one stereo track, that's all. If you can use another method of recording so you can get each mic on a separate track (or two for stereo) then you can bring the multiple tracks into Premiere or Audacity. Still, it will be a lot harder if you don't use digital audio mixer software to do the final mix.

I also think you should consider two mics for the vocals. Chances of problems with people being ready to step up to a mic and sing while waiting for the previous vocalist to get out of the way is pretty high. I have seen this type of recording done and they always use at least two mics, always on mic stands except for a hand held mic or two that may be used for solos.

I know you are trying to do this as cheaply as possible but you don't want to end up with something you can't even use, that would be a huge waste. Check B&H for Digital Recorders, you can find them with 2, 4, 8, and more inputs. Prices vary drastically between units, manufacturers and models. I think Ed just purchased something similar for home recording.
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Re: Help with recording audio

Postby ryan_khoo » Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:45 am

Chuck Engels wrote:Hi Ryan,
I don't recommend using adapters unless absolutely necessary, primarily due to signal loss, quality issues and potential connection problems that can be hard to diagnose.
Ok, this makes sense to me now ....

The unit you suggest is only a mixer, it won't get you anywhere as far as getting a good quality recording onto your computer.

Yes, actually I am confused as to why I need a mixer ? Bcos there is virtually nothing for me to mix, I only want to record the vocals from the singers singing onto 2 mics. Is 2 mics considered as a mix thus needing a mixer ?

I was told that since the Shure SM58 mic is a mono mic, I need to use 2 of those to make it stereo. I was also told that maybe I do not need a mixer but what I need was a mic preamp. Is that correct ?

If that is correct, I have search on the internet & based on a budget of USD60, I came out with this:
http://www.zzounds.com/item--THKMIMAB0

If I can afford another USD 100, I can get this:
http://www.zzounds.com/item--MDODMP3

But most importantly, are the 2 above the correct gadget to purchase in the first place ? What I do not understand is that both have only 2 inputs (enough for my purpose bcos I only use 2 mics to record the vocal) buy why they differ by USD100 in prices ?

You can record directly to Windows Movie Maker, Premiere Elements, Windows Sound Recorder, or Audacity for that matter.

This is most re-assuring .... as I do not have time to learn a new software like Audacity .... hahahaha

You will get one stereo track, that's all. If you can use another method of recording so you can get each mic on a separate track (or two for stereo) then you can bring the multiple tracks into Premiere or Audacity. Still, it will be a lot harder if you don't use digital audio mixer software to do the final mix.

I am sorry Chuck, I do not get what you are trying to tell me.

When you said "another method of recording", which method are you referring to ?

Also, I don't quite understand how you can get "each mic on a separate track" because my laptop has only one 3.5mm mic in jack. I think I lack some understanding here. Wouldn't I get only one wav file (or mp3 file) from the laptop (if say I used Windows Movie Maker to record the sound) since my laptop has only one sound input ?

Or are you trying to say that when I import this wav file (or mp3 file) into Premiere, it will have multiple track ? Hmmm ... sorry my understanding is kinda poor here ...

I also think you should consider two mics for the vocals.

Yes, unless you advise strongly against it, I have decided to purchase 2 numbers of Shure SM58 mic.

Chances of problems with people being ready to step up to a mic and sing while waiting for the previous vocalist to get out of the way is pretty high. I have seen this type of recording done and they always use at least two mics, always on mic stands except for a hand held mic or two that may be used for solos.
Yes, I will be purchasing a mic stand too. So I suppose that will solve the solve the problem that you mentioned ? But for my knowledge, can explain how by having 2 mics can solve the problem ?

I know you are trying to do this as cheaply as possible but you don't want to end up with something you can't even use, that would be a huge waste.
Yes, I am quite worried too because amongst the school volunteers I am the only one who knows how to edit video. When I volunteered, I thought the recording was just simply connecting a mic into a laptop .... I least expect to face with all these "problems". Having said that, I hope I will not disappoint the school principal even though this is volunteer work .... thus I desperately need help here ...

Check B&H for Digital Recorders, you can find them with 2, 4, 8, and more inputs. Prices vary drastically between units, manufacturers and models. I think Ed just purchased something similar for home recording.

Will the 2 pre amp I mentioned just now suitable ?

Thanks a million ....
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Re: Help with recording audio

Postby Chuck Engels » Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:57 pm

Hi Ryan,
The two pre-amps will work fine if you have a splitter with a 1/8" adapter to connect to your computer. I am still concerned that you will not get very good quality this way and will not really be able to do any mixing on your computer as both mics will come in as one single stereo channel.

The two Shure mics are perfect for your needs, good choice in microphones.

With only one mic on a stand and multiple people needing to step up to the mic it is easier to have two lines of vocalists, each line having their own microphone. Then there is no delay or waiting for someone to get out of the way so the next person can step up to the mic. Line one vocalist sings and then while that person moves out of the way the line 2 vocalist sings, but the time the vocalist is done another vocalist has stepped up to the mic in line 1, know what I mean? Much less chance for problems that way.

Here are a few good examples of what would be best for your needs;
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/pr ... sku=240343

This might work really well, check the reviews
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/pr ... sku=241814

There are many others depending on your price range but these two look pretty reasonable.

I hope that I have answered all of your questions Ryan. If I missed any please let me know :)
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Re: Help with recording audio

Postby ryan_khoo » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:20 am

Chuck Engels wrote: I am still concerned that you will not get very good quality this way and will not really be able to do any mixing on your computer as both mics will come in as one single stereo channel.

Thanks Chuck, I think I need you to explain something more elementary. What exactly do you mean when you said mixing ? In my case I am only recording vocal with the singers singing onto 2 mics, no guitar, no guitar & no nothing .... except the 2 mics. I still need mixing ?

With only one mic on a stand and multiple people needing to step up to the mic it is easier to have two lines of vocalists, each line having their own microphone. Then there is no delay or waiting for someone to get out of the way so the next person can step up to the mic. Line one vocalist sings and then while that person moves out of the way the line 2 vocalist sings, but the time the vocalist is done another vocalist has stepped up to the mic in line 1, know what I mean? Much less chance for problems that way.
Thanks, if I understand you correctly, getting 2 mic stands will resolve the problem ?

Here are a few good examples of what would be best for your needs;
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/pr ... sku=240343

This might work really well, check the reviews
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/pr ... sku=241814

There are many others depending on your price range but these two look pretty reasonable.

Thanks for the link but the equipment has so many buttons & knobs, looks intimidating to me ... Hahahaha

I hope that I have answered all of your questions Ryan. If I missed any please let me know :)


Yes, I need you to explain to me something elementary which I do not understand.

QUESTION 1:
I see you mentioned many times that I should get "multiple track" ? What puzzle me is that if my laptop has only one 3.5mm input mic line-in jack, how do I get multiple sound track ?

QUESTION 2:
I was wondering, if I connect the 2 mics directly into my camcorder, will the sound be ok ? Do I still need a preamp in this case ?

(I ask bcos if the sound can be captured into the video this way, then I do not have to sync the vocal (mouth movements) with the video inside the Video Editor in Adobe Premiere)

QUESTION 3:
When I captured the singing sound (vocal) using say Windows Movie Maker or Premiere on the laptop, do I need a laptop that have an expensive sound card ?

(I ask bcos I juz check, my laptop only comes with a cheap integrated/inbuilt sound card)

Thanks a million, Chuck ...

Cheers
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Re: Help with recording audio

Postby Chuck Engels » Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:35 am

ryan_khoo wrote:Thanks Chuck, I think I need you to explain something more elementary. What exactly do you mean when you said mixing ? In my case I am only recording vocal with the singers singing onto 2 mics, no guitar, no guitar & no nothing .... except the 2 mics. I still need mixing ?


You will be surprised at how uneven or unlevel the audio will be between the two mics. You will need to boost some singers and lower others as well as balance the two to the same level, that is called mixing ;)

Thanks, if I understand you correctly, getting 2 mic stands will resolve the problem ?

If you have two vocal mics then get two mic stands, don't let anyone hold a mic if you can help it. The noise from moving a mic back and forth, among other things, will ruin a good recording.

Thanks for the link but the equipment has so many buttons & knobs, looks intimidating to me ... Hahahaha


Don't let that scare you, they are very simple to operate, you really only need to worry about the overall volume level for each mic.

QUESTION 1:
I see you mentioned many times that I should get "multiple track" ? What puzzle me is that if my laptop has only one 3.5mm input mic line-in jack, how do I get multiple sound track ?

QUESTION 2:
I was wondering, if I connect the 2 mics directly into my camcorder, will the sound be ok ? Do I still need a preamp in this case ?

(I ask bcos if the sound can be captured into the video this way, then I do not have to sync the vocal (mouth movements) with the video inside the Video Editor in Adobe Premiere)

QUESTION 3:
When I captured the singing sound (vocal) using say Windows Movie Maker or Premiere on the laptop, do I need a laptop that have an expensive sound card ?


1. That is the point of the digital recorder, you get multiple tracks. Each microphone will be on a separate track using the digital recorder. If you simply record to your computer using the sound card input you will get one single stereo track that has both microphones at whatever levels they are when recorded and you won't be able to do anything to adjust them separately. When you hear the recording you will understand the problem, different people sing at different levels, some are much louder, some stand closer to the mic, some are very soft, you need to be able to make adjustments and you can't do that recording directly to your computer through the sound card.

2. The sound will not be good connecting the mics directly to your sound card mic input, it is not wired for these types of microphones. It also is not wired for multiple microphones of this type, that is why you need at least a microphone pre-amp and a 1/8" to dual XLR splitter.

3. The better the sound card the better you will be if you are recording directly to the computer. If you record to a digital recorder as I have suggested then it won't matter at all.

Hope that helps :)
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Re: Help with recording audio

Postby ryan_khoo » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:52 am

Chuck Engels wrote:You will be surprised at how uneven or unlevel the audio will be between the two mics. You will need to boost some singers and lower others as well as balance the two to the same level, that is called mixing ;)

Excellent explanation ... didn't realize until you tell me of such problem ... now I understand why you said earlier that you worry I will end up with something that I cannot use ....


If you have two vocal mics then get two mic stands, don't let anyone hold a mic if you can help it. The noise from moving a mic back and forth, among other things, will ruin a good recording.
Another good tips. Will keep that in mind. Thank you.

Don't let that scare you, they are very simple to operate, you really only need to worry about the overall volume level for each mic.
Ok, thanks for your encouragement


1. That is the point of the digital recorder, you get multiple tracks. Each microphone will be on a separate track using the digital recorder. If you simply record to your computer using the sound card input you will get one single stereo track that has both microphones at whatever levels they are when recorded and you won't be able to do anything to adjust them separately. When you hear the recording you will understand the problem, different people sing at different levels, some are much louder, some stand closer to the mic, some are very soft, you need to be able to make adjustments and you can't do that recording directly to your computer through the sound card.

Ok, I think I am beginning to slowly understand you. So, we can get multiple tracks using digital recorder, that's cool.... :-5

May I ask, where does the digital recorder copy the tracks to ? If I understand you correctly, the digital recorder has a harddisk & the it records as a wav file on the harddisk ?

Thanks


2. The sound will not be good connecting the mics directly to your sound card mic input, it is not wired for these types of microphones. It also is not wired for multiple microphones of this type, that is why you need at least a microphone pre-amp and a 1/8" to dual XLR splitter.
Actually, my Question 2 was referring to another alternative of connecting the 2 mics to a video camera. But I suppose your answer would be the same, right ?

3. The better the sound card the better you will be if you are recording directly to the computer. If you record to a digital recorder as I have suggested then it won't matter at all.
Does that mean that if I connect the 2 mics to a digital recorder, I do not need to connect this digital recorder to a laptop/PC ? It will be recorded to the harddisk inbuilt in the digital recorder ? If this is true, then I will not eat for 2 weeks & save some moolah to buy a digital recorder .... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hope that helps :)

Yes Chuck, thanks a million. Really appreciate for educating me ...
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Re: Help with recording audio

Postby Chuck Engels » Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:10 pm

The digital recorders will record to either a memory card, memory stick or a hard drive, depending on the unit.

Same applies to either a direct computer connection or a camcorder connection unless the camcorder has two XLR microphone jacks :)

Using the digital recorder you don't need a laptop for recording, everything is recorded to the digital recorder. You will then transfer those files to you computer for editing later. Remember you will have to sync the audio with the video if you are also doing a video recording. Having a loud clap (recorded to video and audio) at the beginning will help you to line that all up.

The digital recorders have phantom power for microphones and you can connect 2 or 4 mics depending on the unit. They are completely self contained.
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Re: Help with recording audio

Postby ryan_khoo » Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:10 pm

Chuck Engels wrote:The digital recorders will record to either a memory card, memory stick or a hard drive, depending on the unit.

Same applies to either a direct computer connection or a camcorder connection unless the camcorder has two XLR microphone jacks :)

Using the digital recorder you don't need a laptop for recording, everything is recorded to the digital recorder. You will then transfer those files to you computer for editing later. Remember you will have to sync the audio with the video if you are also doing a video recording. Having a loud clap (recorded to video and audio) at the beginning will help you to line that all up.

The digital recorders have phantom power for microphones and you can connect 2 or 4 mics depending on the unit. They are completely self contained.

Thanks Chuck,

I think I have a fair idea of what digital recorder is now & pretty convince this is a better way for my purpose. Well, it looks like I have to starve for a few weeks :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hope you don't me asking some minor questions to reinforce my understanding:

QUESTION 1:
I read a lot about people saying clapping loudly. What exactly do you mean by ''Having a loud clap (recorded to video and audio) at the beginning will help you to line that all up" ? Do you mean we record a loud clap prior to each recording so that when we transfer to Premiere, we align the loud clap together & cut off the loud clap ?

QUESTION 2:
I think I will do many many takes during the recording .... each take will be recorded as a separate file, right ? (I worry that all the takes be join-up as one file then i will have problem locating them)

QUESTION 3:
Just to reconfirm, after getting the digital recorder, I do not need to get any mixer or preamp anymore, right ?

QUESTION 4:
Just to reconfirm, I can adjust the volume level after it has been recorded on the digital recorder, right ? I do not have to adjust during the live recording, right ?

Thanks a million, Chuck
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Re: Help with recording audio

Postby Chuck Engels » Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:32 pm

1. The clap is for purposes of syncing up the video with the audio. If you were using multiple cameras you would make a loud noise/clap with a visual aid like a clap board you see in movies and TV. If you are not syncing anything up then there is no need for the clap. I'm not sure if you are video taping this also and will be doing something like a music video. If you are then you will need to sync up the audio and video, especially if you use a digital recorder. A visual aid and a loud clap will make the syncing of the video and audio much easier.

2. You can record as one long file (as long as you have space on the drive) or separate files, it is all in the control of the digital recorder. You will start it and stop it just like a tape recorder.

3. With the digital recorder, as long as it has some type of power for the mic gain, you don't need a pre-amp or mixer, that is correct.

4. You will need to keep an eye on the level and make sure it is not too hot, keeping it out of the red or just bouncing occasionally in the red. Other than that you will be all set and can adjust the levels when you get the audio onto your computer.
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Re: Help with recording audio

Postby ryan_khoo » Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:51 am

Chuck Engels wrote:1. The clap is for purposes of syncing up the video with the audio. If you were using multiple cameras you would make a loud noise/clap with a visual aid like a clap board you see in movies and TV. If you are not syncing anything up then there is no need for the clap. I'm not sure if you are video taping this also and will be doing something like a music video. If you are then you will need to sync up the audio and video, especially if you use a digital recorder. A visual aid and a loud clap will make the syncing of the video and audio much easier.

Yes, I will be taping the video as well to do something like a music video.

My question is how do we use this clapping to sync ? We align all this this clip in the Video Editor (say Adobe Premiere) in such a way that the clapping start at the same time, then we delete away the clapping part. Is my understanding, correct ?

4. You will need to keep an eye on the level and make sure it is not too hot, keeping it out of the red or just bouncing occasionally in the red. Other than that you will be all set and can adjust the levels when you get the audio onto your computer.

Other than keeping an eye on the level & make sure it do not go to the red section & let's say AFTER recording on the digital recorder, i disconnect the mic & took the digital recorder back home. Then at home, I took out the digital recorder, I find something not perfect say too loud or or too soft, can I adjust it in the digital recorder itself BEFORE I transfer to the computer ?

Other than that I think you have convinced me to get a digital recorder .... now I gotta find the cheapest one ... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thanks a million, Chuck ....
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Re: Help with recording audio

Postby Chuck Engels » Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:38 am

Yes, the clapping is used to line up all of the video and audio, then that part is cut out.

If the levels are too hot/loud then you will not be able to make adjustments to fix that very easily.
Distortion from over driven audio is not possible to fix in editing so you need to make sure your audio level remains consistent.
Too soft is better than too loud.

Depending on the recorder you get you may be able to make adjustments before transferring the audio files to your computer. However, that will not be necessary as you will have control of the audio levels in your editing application, Premiere Elements or whatever.
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Re: Help with recording audio

Postby ryan_khoo » Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:02 pm

Thanks Chuck,

I think we've pretty covered everything that I wanna ask.

One last question though, If I copy some audio file into the memory card & insert it into the Fostex MR-8mkII (digital recorder), will the digital recorder be able to play the audio from the memory card ?

Also would it be possible to connect a CD player to the digital recorder as one of the input ?

Thanks
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