HD Tape Played on SD TV Looks Far Better than DV-AVI Version

[George Tyndall]

Help!

Given that SD interlaced TV is only 720x480, I'm having difficulty understanding why a HD M2T 1080i tape produced with a Canon HV30 looks far better when played directly on the SD TV from the camcorder than when the tape has been imported into the Premiere 3.0 Timeline then exported as DV-AVI, which is also 720x480.

[Paul LS]

That is why this was put as a FAQ on the Adobe forum.
http://adobeforums.com/webx/.3bc434fa

It was based on this link:
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t ... ht=tmpgenc

[Chuck Engels]

Premiere Pro CS3 does a much better job converting HDV to SD with the Adobe Media Encoder, but I don't think that Premiere Elements will give you the same good results That is why we always suggest downconverting from the camcorder during capture into an SD project if the end results are going to be SD format video.

[George Tyndall]

That is why we always suggest downconverting from the camcorder during capture into an SD project if the end results are going to be SD format video.

Hi Chuck,

I am aware of that recommendation, however, when I compared the downconversion method with the convert HD to SD on the Premiere 3.0 Timeline method, I could not see any difference in the quality of either the DV-AVIs or the resultant DVDs.

[Ken Jarstad]

when I compared the downconversion method with the convert HD to SD on the Premiere 3.0 Timeline method, I could not see any difference in the quality of either the DV-AVIs or the resultant DVDs.

If you can't see the difference then good for you. However, you probably should be seeing a difference. The article that Paul posted (dvinfo forum) has some tantalizing information on how to make SD video look better than it should (my terminology). Check that entire topic and you will find some software that does a better job encoding DVDs than Elements. However, I think our Canon HV20s and HV30s do a superior job of downconverting in the camera. Perhaps a 6 or 7 on a scale of 10.

[George Tyndall]

The article that Paul posted (dvinfo forum) has some tantalizing information on how to make SD video look better than it should (my terminology). Check that entire topic and you will find some software that does a better job encoding DVDs than Elements.

After taking into account Chuck's comment re PPCS3, and after reading the entire topic on DVIForum, espcially the last post on PPCS3, I went to the Adobe website to download a trial version, however, the fine print states that,altough Encore is included, the trial does NOT include the USE of Encore during the trial period. I interpret this to mean that I would not be able to produce a SD DVD with the software, which is of course my ultimate goal. Given that the majority of potential purchasers probably intend to use the software to produce SD DVDs, doesn't that make Adobe's provision of a trial version all but worthless?

I do qualify for the special education prices that Adobe offers, however, I would much prefer to actually try the software to produce a SD DVD rather than buy it with a discount, only to find that the results are not satisfactory.

P.S. Given all the testimonials re "downconversion," I too was surprised that no difference was apparent. It is precisely that experience that has made me leery of buying based solely on testimonials. The other reason that I would prefer to actually try PPCS3 or other editing software before buying is that my particular equipment, which I am not planning to change, barely meets the usual System Requirements, including those for PPCS3.

[Chuck Engels]

Hi George,
Even though you may not be able to use Encore to burn the DVD I do believe that Premiere Pro will burn the DVD, no need to use Encore for this test. You will be able to use the Adobe Media Encoder, although there are probably some limitations to what formats you can export.
Download CS3 and give it a test drive, it will be a good experience if nothing else

[George Tyndall]

Hi George,
Even though you may not be able to use Encore to burn the DVD I do believe that Premiere Pro will burn the DVD, no need to use Encore for this test. You will be able to use the Adobe Media Encoder, although there are probably some limitations to what formats you can export.
Download CS3 and give it a test drive, it will be a good experience if nothing else

Hi Chuck,

Thanks for that information. I will download the trial next week.

BTW, if you go to the last page on the dviForum link mentioned above, the poster states that, following the arrival of CS3, Premiere Pro seems to handle very well the production of a SD DVD from HD footage on the Timeline, i.e., no need to downconvert in camera. Is that also your experience? The reason I ask is that I am already having to perform 2 exports of my edited HD footage, once for HD WMV 720p, which I use to play on my HD monitor, and a second to my iPod. In the event I also wish to create a DVD from the edited footage, it would be much easier to perform a third export to DV AVI for the production of the DVD than to go through the process of re-editing downconverted footage on the Timeline.

Lastly, do you expect that CS3 will work well with the limitations of my particular equipment?

[Chuck Engels]

I just completed my first HDV Blu-Ray wedding video, all 2 hours of it

I captured HDV with HDVSpit from a Canon HV20 and imported that into a 1080i Premiere Pro project. When finished I exported the hi def mpeg files (m2t and audio), for the Blu-Ray disc, and then exported SD DV-AVI files for the standard disc. The SD video looks great
Used the Adobe Media Encoder for the Hi Def export but used the standard, File/Export/Movie for the SD Video Export.

I think your equipment will work fine George, maybe a little slower rendering and transcoding than mine but it should be just fine

[George Tyndall]

The SD video looks great
Used the Adobe Media Encoder for the Hi Def export but used the standard, File/Export/Movie for the SD Video Export.

Hi Chuck,

Thanks for that.

Does the DV AVI file, when played on SD TV, look as good as the HD tape played directly on SD TV?

Did you also burn a SD DVD from the DV AVI file? Does it look as good as the DV AVI file did on SD TV?

[Chuck Engels]

I did not play the tape on the TV, I did make a DVD from the AVI files and the DVD looked very good.
With 2 hours of video I am sure that it was a bit more compressed than the normal 1 hour video, so considering that it was extremely good quality.

[George Tyndall]

...I did make a DVD from the AVI files and the DVD looked very good.

I am SO happy to know that. I will download the trial version and try it ASAP.

Thank you!

[George Tyndall]

I captured HDV with HDVSpit from a Canon HV20 and imported that into a 1080i Premiere Pro project. When finished I exported the hi def mpeg files (m2t and audio), for the Blu-Ray disc, and then exported SD DV-AVI files for the standard disc. The SD video looks great
Used the Adobe Media Encoder for the Hi Def export but used the standard, File/Export/Movie for the SD Video Export.

Hi Chuck,

I've downloaded the trial version of PP CS3 and when I clicked on New Project the resulting window, which shows the "Available Presets," has no + sign in front of the HDV folder, and when I click on the folder nothing appears in the Description area. Given also that the OK button remains grayed out, I take this to mean that I cannot use the trial version to import and edit as a 1080i project the files that I just captured from my Canon HV30 using HDVSplit.

What are the people at Adobe thinking of when their trial version disallows both working with HDV and trying Encore CS3? Given such limitations, how is one to make a valid comparison with other programs?

[Chuck Engels]

Hi George,
I tried to find out what the limitations were on the trail, couldn't find anything.
It is possible that the trail does not let you import or capture HDV footage although I don't know why they would do that.
Maybe someone else has tried the trial version and can shed some light on this, I have never used the trial version myself.

[George Tyndall]

I tried to find out what the limitations were on the trail, couldn't find anything.

Hi Chuck,

Because I don't intend to purchase an expensive program like PP CS3 if I cannot first test it, I decided to repeat a previous experiment with PSE3.0 in which I compare a DVD created from a DV AVI file that has been created via downconversion (in a Canon HV30) to one in which I export a DV AVI file from an HD Timeline for the purpose of burning a DVD. The difference in technique is that this time I used a larger SD TV for the comparison.

The unquestionable result, as many others have noted, is that a DVD created via downconversion is markedly visually superior, especially when viewed on a larger SD (31-inch) TV. Even at an abnormally-close viewing distance of only 2 feet, I was struck by the quality.

My continuing problem is that, if I wish to burn a SD DVD after completing the exports of my M2T Timeline to HD WMV 720p and to my iPod, I would need to perform a second capture for the downconversion--unless, that is, it happens that a technique recommended in July 2006 by Kevin Shaw in the dviForum proves fruitful:

Another way around this problem is to capture and edit HD, render that out to an HD file for future use and then re-import that into a DV timeline for rendering to SD. That way you avoid problems switching back and forth from HD to SD resoluiton on the timeline, and end up with satisfactory HD and SD output.

If successful, Kevin's technique avoids the headache of performing a second capture/edit process. I will try it now then report the results as a new topic in the High Def forum.