Help! Still Confused About Hi-Def

[George Tyndall]

As I understand it, my Canon HV30 creates HDV tapes at 1440x1080i, whatever that means. 1440/1080=1.33 and 1080/1440=0.75, which is the aspect ratio for NON-WIDESCREEN NTSC TVs.

However, if I choose the Adobe HDV/HDV 1080i 30 project preset in Premiere 3.0, the “Description” states that it is for editing “16:9 interlaced HD video at 29.97 fps.” 16/9=1.77 and 9/16=0.56, which, as I understand it, is the aspect ration for WIDESCREEN TVs.

How can it be that a tape that is NON-WIDESCREEN should be edited as a WIDESCREEN?

Also, what is meant by the Premiere 3.0 Video Setting, “Fields: Upper Field First”?

Next, PSE4.0 offers me the choice of outputting my slideshows as WMV9 files with resolution 1280x720. The Description, “WMV Setting Details — Widescreen High Definition” states, “This choice is for a TV that is widescreen (16:9) and High Definition (720p).”

How is the 1080i project preset that I am supposed to use to edit my HV30 tapes different from 720p? Specifically, what is happening when I drop into a PSE4.0 slideshow an HD1080i/.m2t Canon video that I have exported from Premiere as HD WMV, and then I “output” that slideshow, which contains both video and stills, at 1280x720 (“720p”)?

Lastly, why is it that a slideshow that has been output at 1280x720 looks terrific on a 1920x1200 Hi-Def computer monitor?

I am so very confused!

P.S. To the Moderatos: I've put this post into 3 different forums because I'm not sure which of the forums are read by those members who have the expertise to help me with this.

[Paul LS]

The 1440x1080 pixels are not square, a 1.33 rectangular pixel aspect ratio of a 1440x1080 HDV file gives you a 1920x1080 square pixel video (1440x1.33). 1920:1080 is the same as ratio as 16:9. So the the 1440x1080 is a 16:9 widescreen format when considering square pixels.

HDV MPEG2 Video is interlaced... so two fields are shot, one after the other seperated by a finite time. For HDV MPEG2 the upper field is displayed first, for DV-AVI the lower field is displayed first. this becomes important if you are burning a DVD and viewing on an interlaced monitor.

The 1080i is interlaced the 720p is progressive... ie "not interlaced". So ideal for displaying on a non-interlaced monitor or LCD TV. That is why the 720p looks better on a non-interlaced 1920x1200monitor... you do not see the two fields that were shot at at a slightly different time, giving the apperance of jaggies. However, you can use a mediaplayer that de-interlaces the 1080i and gets rid of the jaggies (assuming your monitor does not interlace).

[Ron]

P.S. To the Moderatos: I've put this post into 3 different forums because I'm not sure which of the forums are read by those members who have the expertise to help me with this.

Hi George,

AFAIK, all the moderators read all the forums. No need to triple post.

[George Tyndall]

For HDV MPEG2 the upper field is displayed first, for DV-AVI the lower field is displayed first. this becomes important if you are burning a DVD and viewing on an interlaced monitor.

Paul, that is a truly terrific reply, and I thank you so much.

I am having difficulty with the statement quoted above. Please clarify when you have the opportunity.

Also, in the event I decide to burn a DVD after I've exported an HD WMV (720p) version to play from my hard drive, would either of the following result in a DVD of similar quality:
1) export the video that is still on the timeline to my hard drive as DV-AVI ("Movie" on the export drop-down) for subsequent burning of the DVD; or
2) use the completed HD WMV (720p) version to, with MovieMaker, convert the HD WMV to DV AVI then burn the DVD? CanMovieMaker handle a conversion of HD WMV 720p to DV AVI?

Thank you.

[John 'twosheds' McDonald]

George,

This link might help with the interlace/non-iterlace upper field first problem:

http://neuron2.net/LVG/interlacing.html

With regard to the conversion of 720p to DV-AVI you will be losing resolution. 720p is recorded at 1280x720 pixels; DV-AVI (for D1-NTSC) is 720x486.

[Paul LS]

When you shoot video two fields are captured. These two fields of even and odd lines are interlaced to produce the picture. You can display either the odd lines first or the even lines first... which equates to the MPEG upper field first or the DV-AVI lower field first. As these fields are captured in sequence in time you need to preserve the time sequence when they are played back otherwise you get ghosting in the picture. So you need to maintain the field order throughout the production process.

As Premiere Elements has a DV-AVI workflow it expects the video to be lower field first. So if you use an MPEG file in a DV-AVI project preset you need to reverse it's field dominace (right click on the clip in the timeline and select Field Order, then Reverse Field Dominace) to maintain the correct field order during the editing and burning to DVD process.

[Kerrie]

Gosh, Paul. Thanks for that explanation. I had problems with this before, but didn't realize it was because I was working from a mpeg file (and thus had to reverse the field dominance)! Learn something new here every day!

[George Tyndall]

When you shoot video two fields are captured. These two fields of even and odd lines are interlaced to produce the picture. You can display either the odd lines first or the even lines first... which equates to the MPEG upper field first or the DV-AVI lower field first. As these fields are captured in sequence in time you need to preserve the time sequence when they are played back otherwise you get ghosting in the picture. So you need to maintain the field order throughout the production process.

As Premiere Elements has a DV-AVI workflow it expects the video to be lower field first. So if you use an MPEG file in a DV-AVI project preset you need to reverse it's field dominace (right click on the clip in the timeline and select Field Order, then Reverse Field Dominace) to maintain the correct field order during the editing and burning to DVD process.

Paul, if I understand you thoroughly, it seems all the following statements should be true:

1) Because the Canon HV30 creates M2T=MPEG2 tapes at 1440x1080i, the Project Preset must be HDV 1080i 30, and to get the very highest quality export to one's hard drive, for subsequent playback on a Hi-Def LCD monitor, one should choose to export as MPEG2 (because no format conversion is involved).
2) Of the available choices in Premiere 3.0 for export to one's hard drive for subsequent playback on a Hi-Def LCD monitor, the second-best choice would be WMV 720p.
3) If one wishes to create a SD DVD from a timeline composed of M2T clips, one may either: a) export the video as DV AVI ("Movie" on the export tab), then import that file from Files and Folders to create the DVD; or 2) right-click on the clip in the timeline and select Field Order, then Reverse Field Dominace before clicking on the Create DVD tab. The two methods will give equivalent results.
4) Given that one may sometimes, at a later date, wish to create more DVDs of a previous project, 3a is preferable to 3b.

Are all the statements correct?

P.S. Do 3a and 3b take about the same amount of time, or, when time is of the essence, is one method significantly faster than the other?

Thanks once again for sharing your awesome knowledge of information that photographers MUST thoroughly understand, when the highest quality export is desired.

[Briantho]

...As Premiere Elements has a DV-AVI workflow it expects the video to be lower field first. So if you use an MPEG file in a DV-AVI project preset you need to reverse it's field dominace (right click on the clip in the timeline and select Field Order, then Reverse Field Dominace) to maintain the correct field order during the editing and burning to DVD process.

Wow! - me too, many thanks for that Paul. I may well have read about this before (lots of times!) but I think this is the first time the penny has actually dropped.

The ghosting you mention could also be seen as juddering when panning...?

[Paul LS]

Hi George, I am not too sure about your 3a,b as I only create HDV projects video so I have never exported to create a standard DVD from a HDV timeline. I know that PE does not export standard DV-AVI from a HDV project with "top" quality. Better to capture in DV-AVI after downconverting in the camcorder... this is what is generally recommended (unless you use other software). However this means you have to duplicate the work if you want both standard definition and high definition.

And yes Brian, if the field order is reversed you will see stuttering/juddering during movement or panning when the DVD is viewed on TV.

[George Tyndall]

...I have never exported to create a standard DVD from a HDV timeline. I know that PE does not export standard DV-AVI from a HDV project with "top" quality. Better to capture in DV-AVI after downconverting in the camcorder... this is what is generally recommended (unless you use other software). However this means you have to duplicate the work if you want both standard definition and high definition.

Paul, I did an experiment with my particular equipment (XP Windows Media Center 2005) that compared a DVD created from a DV AVI file that I made from m2t clips with a DVD that I created after "downconverting" in camera, and I could not see any difference in quality. Both SD DVDs were made with Premiere 3.0.

Next, because my current interest is more in dropping short video clips into slideshows than in creatng videos per se, I imported a WMV 1280x720p clip that I had created with Premiere 3.0 into a Photoshop PSE4.0 slideshow composed of high-quality photos in 2x3 format (roughly 2250x1500 pixels each and each about 2 MB in size). I exported that slideshow from PSE4.0 at 1280x720p. Upon playback on my hi-def 1920x1200 monitor, this slide show, including the clip portion, looked very good indeed, not to say FABULOUS.

Then, using Premiere 3.0, I created a DVI AVI file from that WMV 1280x720p slideshow and burned a DVD from the just-created DV AVI file (without closing Premiere 3.0). This widescreen SD DVD, when played on my wife's SD DVD player, despite being "letterboxed" on her 31"SD TV, appears to be of similar, or better, quality to any of the other SD DVDs I've created.

In short, I have not found it necessary to go through 2 separate captures from my Canon HV30, one to create a HD WMV 720p file and another to create a SD DVD through "downconversion," so I am VERY happy.

I want to thank you still once again for INVALUABLE assistance.

[Paul LS]

Hi George, glad to hear you have determined a workflow that gives you good results without needing to do the work twice. You can really get some stunning results with high definition slideshows and video. Even compressed HD WMV gives great results.

[George Tyndall]

You can really get some stunning results with high definition slideshows....

Yes, Paul, and as Steve and Chuck note in their book, Premiere Elements 2 in a Snap, when one has become skillful at panning and zooming still photographs, the effect can be "more powerful than shooting video...." (By the way, after refusing for the longest time to accept the Windows Genuine Advantage download, I finally gave in--it was the only way to get Version 11 of the Windows Media Viewer on my Windows Media Center 2005. I must admit that the quality of the WMV 11 images is STUNNING.)

Another reason I like HD WMV slideshows comprised mostly of HD stills, in comparison with DV AVI files to be used for making SD DVDs, is that they consume a lot less of my hard drive.

For example, I just completed a series of 13 slide shows, comprised mostly of stills, in HD WMV (1200x720p) that total about 52 minutes of viewing. The folder that contains them all is about 3.5GB in size, while the DV AVI folder that contains those same songs is 13.0GB in size. ( I needed to output the 13 slideshows as DV AVI in additon to HD WMV because I also wanted to put them all on a SD DVD.) At 13GB for 13 songs, that's 1GB each in DV AVI, yet when played back on an HD monitor, the HD WMV looks "eons" better than the DV AVI.

On the other hand, it would be even better to be able to create HD DVDs, which would also free up one's hard drive. You wrote that you are working only in HD now. You are not finding it difficult to share your work?

By the way, I'm finding that my SD DVDs (created from DV AVI files), when played on the small screen of my portable Sony DVD player, which is LCD 480x220, look ok. Given that DV AVI is for interlaced rather than non-interlaced LCD screens, isn't this surprising?

[Paul LS]

I must admit most of my videos consist mainly of stills with panning and zooming and a bit of video. I tend to have a lot of interesting stills and a lot of boring video (so only a little interesting video)... that is why my productions consist of mainly stills and a little video.

Regarding high definition on DVD. What would be good for you is HD WMV DVD format. You can burn HD WMV DVDs or cds... at either 1920:1080 or 1280:720, you can store an hour or two on a DVD. You can have a menu with chapters and it will autoplay in Windows Media Player and you should be able to play them in Media Center 2005 using your remote. You can also play them on a computer and they will auto play, so good for distribution to relatives. I have Magix MovieEdit Pro 11+ and it burns them along with menus. I can not tell the difference in quality between these and the high definition MPEG2 and AVCHD DVDs that I burn.

The High definition MPEG2 and AVCHD DVDs I burn have menus and I play them on my HDTV via a high definition HD-DVD/Bluray software player, Cyberlink PowerDVD. I burn them to standard DVDs, you can fit about 25 minutes. A lot cheaper than buying a Bluray burner/player. Once Bluray players drop in price and I can afford one it will be able to play these AVCHD DVDs.

[George Tyndall]

What would be good for you is HD WMV DVD format. You can burn HD WMV DVDs or cds... at either 1920:1080 or 1280:720, you can store an hour or two on a DVD..... You can also play them on a computer and they will auto play, so good for distribution to relatives.

The exported HD DVDs will autoplay as SD on consumer SD DVD players and at HD if they have a BluRay player plus HDTV?